ATL - New Lottery Rules Move to Owner Vote - pg59

[rilamann]

If you were given the choice today to trade the Bucks front office, coach and roster, picks for their Celtic counterparts do you do it?

I say where do I sign-up even though Giannis might likely be the best player on either team over a decade long window.

I wouldn't because of Giannis, but Brad Stevens over Jason Kidd would make me at least think about it.

[chonestown]

The Cavs also had a team wide problem of being lazy on defense last season, no one including Lebron was running hard to change ends getting back on defense. Everyone getting lazy after one or two rotations. **** like that doesn't fly under Brad Stevens and never has. Interesting to see how hard Cleveland coasts in the regular season.

Prediction: Kyrie continues to treat defense as an optional nuisance and his minutes remain unaffected. Brad Stevens chip total at the end of 2019-20 season will remain at today's grand total of zero, placing him well on the way to coaching immortality.

[FlagsFlyForever]

I love all the hype behind Crowder and Isaiah Thomas. Now when Cleveland loses in the Finals, or possibly ECF I don't want to hear how much more help he needs.

In the ECF... to who? Never gonna happen.

and you can't possibly be arguing that the Cavs are eye level with the warriors....

I am not, however with how some are falling over themselves on Cleveland getting Crowder and IT you would think they would.

So it's never gonna happen in the ECF now. Great....if Cleveland doesn't make the Finals, no excuses for Lebron is all I ask.

Basketball is a team game. How can we agree to make "no excuses" for LeBron before the season even starts? We will watch the games and then assign fault and credit accordingly. For example, what if IT and Love play poorly or get injured? Certainly that is not LeBron's fault and citing such a reason for Cleveland's elimination would not be an "excuse for LeBron". You using the word "excuses" implies that you believe people are unfairly attempting to avoid placing blame on LeBron for the Cavs losing the 2017 & 2015 Finals. As if you believe he should've done better than 34.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg with a 53.4 TS% (which is what he averaged during the 11 Finals games in 2017 & 2015).

Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to get past these Warriors. It's ridiculous to hold the fact that LeBron's Cavs are playing during the same time as arguably the greatest dynasty of all time. LeBron would not be any greater if he was currently coming off his third straight championship in a world where Golden State doesn't exist.

[Plossum]

ESPN's RPM SFs

'15-16:
1 - LeBron James
2 - Kawhi Leonard
3 - Kevin Durant
4 - Paul George
5 - Jae Crowder

-16-17:
1 - Lebron
2 - Kawhi
3 - Durant
4 - Giannis
5 - Crowder

Only using that stat because it's quick and easy, but by any metric he's been a monster two-way for two-plus seasons.

With all due respect I think you're misusing RPM here. It's a stat that measures impact not necessarily which player is better than another. Crowder has a really solid impact because the Celtics got the most out of him within their system. If you thrust Crowder on the Nets and asked him to be your primary option his RPM would dive pretty quickly. He's one of the best role players in league but annointing him top 30 is a stretch or even claiming he's near the other guys on that list in terms of talent. All those guys put up insane numbers with a much higher usage which is tough. Crowder ain't close to their level.

[AussieBuck]

ESPN's RPM SFs

'15-16:
1 - LeBron James
2 - Kawhi Leonard
3 - Kevin Durant
4 - Paul George
5 - Jae Crowder

-16-17:
1 - Lebron
2 - Kawhi
3 - Durant
4 - Giannis
5 - Crowder

Only using that stat because it's quick and easy, but by any metric he's been a monster two-way for two-plus seasons.

With all due respect I think you're misusing RPM here. It's a stat that measures impact not necessarily which player is better than another. Crowder has a really solid impact because the Celtics got the most out of him within their system. If you thrust Crowder on the Nets and asked him to be your primary option his RPM would dive pretty quickly. He's one of the best role players in league but annointing him top 30 is a stretch or even claiming he's near the other guys on that list in terms of talent. All those guys put up insnae numbers with a much higher usage which is tough. Crowder ain't closr.

Not that I'm going to defend RPM given it's a magic pudding thingy but asking anyone to play a completely different role than they are suited to isn't likely to work. Not really a convincing argument. Ask Kyrie to do anything that isn't whatever the **** he feels like and he's going to look rubbish. "Hey Kyrie, run an offense and play defense" that **** aint going to wash either.

[midranger]

ESPN's RPM SFs

'15-16:
1 - LeBron James
2 - Kawhi Leonard
3 - Kevin Durant
4 - Paul George
5 - Jae Crowder

-16-17:
1 - Lebron
2 - Kawhi
3 - Durant
4 - Giannis
5 - Crowder

Only using that stat because it's quick and easy, but by any metric he's been a monster two-way for two-plus seasons.

With all due respect I think you're misusing RPM here. It's a stat that measures impact not necessarily which player is better than another. Crowder has a really solid impact because the Celtics got the most out of him within their system. If you thrust Crowder on the Nets and asked him to be your primary option his RPM would dive pretty quickly. He's one of the best role players in league but annointing him top 30 is a stretch or even claiming he's near the other guys on that list in terms of talent. All those guys put up insnae numbers with a much higher usage which is tough. Crowder ain't closr.

Not that I'm going to defend RPM given it's a magic pudding thingy but asking anyone to play a completely different role than they are suited to isn't likely to work. Not really a convincing argument. Ask Kyrie to do anything that isn't whatever the **** he feels like and he's going to look rubbish. "Hey Kyrie, run an offense and play defense" that **** aint going to wash either.

That's all well and good, but calling some one a top-30 player should mean that in a league wide redraft, where the only objective is winning a title this year, that guy goes in the first round to some team willing to make him their best player. Not he's top 30 in random efficiency stat x.

We all know that would be a ludicrous assertion about Jae Crowder. I really like (love) the guy as a 3rd/4th guy like he was in Boston last year, but we all know he's not one of the 30 best basketball players in the world. If you're arguing differently, it's just to argue about something.

[AussieBuck]

With all due respect I think you're misusing RPM here. It's a stat that measures impact not necessarily which player is better than another. Crowder has a really solid impact because the Celtics got the most out of him within their system. If you thrust Crowder on the Nets and asked him to be your primary option his RPM would dive pretty quickly. He's one of the best role players in league but annointing him top 30 is a stretch or even claiming he's near the other guys on that list in terms of talent. All those guys put up insnae numbers with a much higher usage which is tough. Crowder ain't closr.

Not that I'm going to defend RPM given it's a magic pudding thingy but asking anyone to play a completely different role than they are suited to isn't likely to work. Not really a convincing argument. Ask Kyrie to do anything that isn't whatever the **** he feels like and he's going to look rubbish. "Hey Kyrie, run an offense and play defense" that **** aint going to wash either.

That's all well and good, but calling some one a top-30 player should mean that in a league wide redraft, where the only objective is winning a title this year, that guy goes in the first round to some team willing to make him their best player. Not he's top 30 in random efficiency stat x.

We all know that would be a ludicrous assertion about Jae Crowder. I really like (love) the guy as a 3rd/4th guy like he was in Boston last year, but we all know he's not one of the 30 best basketball players in the world. If you're arguing differently, it's just to argue about something.

Well it's not an argument I'm making and I'm drunk and tired so I'm not going to put any effort into this but I guess I'd say it's entirely possible for someone like him to be a top 30 guy impact wise. I guess taking it to more of an extreme I'm fine with the argument that Bill Russell is the GOAT and I'm guessing in this league his stats would be somewhat in the ballpark of prime Noah's and the PPGZ guys here would have all sorts of spanner's like Irving over him if he played today. Crowder, yeah I think he's likely a maximising the fit kinda guy where that kind of stat has him like 20 or so % higher than where he'd be in intelligent kind of league where players were properly evaluated and placed in positions that maximised their utility.

[midranger]

I wasn't directing that specifically at you. I think the unexpected advanced stats darlings are often guys who have stumbled into the exact right mix of players, coaching, and system to maximize whatever shred of basketball ability they have. Change any variable and their impact could decline immensely. whereas a guy like Lebron/Durant/Kawhi/Giannis fits in any system insanely well, and ultimately the system adjusts to them.

As for Bill Russell. Russell's career (including his declining years) averages were 15.1 ppg 22.5 rpg 4.5 apg and probably something like 5 bpg, while playing elite level defense. Rather than Noah, he'd be more like Ben Wallace's best year, if Ben could grab a few more boards, score 15 points and dish out 4 assists. I think most people would take him over Aussie Kyrie.

[ReasonablySober]

I was talking impact.


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[midranger]

He's joined as a top 30 (ahem, impact) player by Amir Johnson, Robert Covington, and Zaza Pachulia.

Lucas Nogueria and Gorgui Dieng just missed the cut though.

[Plossum]

I was talking impact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair play then.

[AussieBuck]

As for Bill Russell. Russell's career (including his declining years) averages were 15.1 ppg 22.5 rpg 4.5 apg and probably something like 5 bpg, while playing elite level defense. Rather than Noah, he'd be more like Ben Wallace's best year, if Ben could grab a few more boards, score 15 points and dish out 4 assists. I think most people would take him over Aussie Kyrie.

Well sure but this was the play 48 minutes a game at 120 possessions per 100 era. Maybe he'd be like 11/15/5/4/2 or something silly like that operating out of the high post.

[buckboy]

Watch on YouTube

Either way Boston is going to be fun to watch.

Two great offensive players Hayward/Irving, two great defensive players Brown/Smart and one who does a little of everything in Horford.

If Jaylen Brown somehow makes a jump offensively or Tatum comes out the gates on fire, I can see them going to the Finals.

As long as LeBron is healthy, good luck. No chance they're better than a healthy Cavs squad.

[buckboy]

All the posters who said Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much are salty as f.

It was too much. Ainge being dumb isn't relevant to that.

[Ron Swanson]

In the ECF... to who? Never gonna happen.

and you can't possibly be arguing that the Cavs are eye level with the warriors....

I am not, however with how some are falling over themselves on Cleveland getting Crowder and IT you would think they would.

So it's never gonna happen in the ECF now. Great....if Cleveland doesn't make the Finals, no excuses for Lebron is all I ask.

Basketball is a team game. How can we agree to make "no excuses" for LeBron before the season even starts? We will watch the games and then assign fault and credit accordingly. For example, what if IT and Love play poorly or get injured? Certainly that is not LeBron's fault and citing such a reason for Cleveland's elimination would not be an "excuse for LeBron". You using the word "excuses" implies that you believe people are unfairly attempting to avoid placing blame on LeBron for the Cavs losing the 2017 & 2015 Finals. As if you believe he should've done better than 34.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg with a 53.4 TS% (which is what he averaged during the 11 Finals games in 2017 & 2015).

Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to get past these Warriors. It's ridiculous to hold the fact that LeBron's Cavs are playing during the same time as arguably the greatest dynasty of all time. LeBron would not be any greater if he was currently coming off his third straight championship in a world where Golden State doesn't exist.

I don't penalize Lebron too much for losing to the Warriors this year, but c'mon. You can't just randomly assign hypotheticals and dole out theoretical credit like this. I could just as easily say that Jordan wins 10 straight championships if he doesn't retire the first time and then plays two more years with the Bulls. That obviously never happened and I don't think it ever would. Star players shouldn't get all of the credit for winning and none of the blame for losing just because they put up great stats. No matter who it is. That's not how sports have ever worked.

[M-C-G]

All the posters who said Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much are salty as f.

It was too much. Ainge being dumb isn't relevant to that.

Yeah, I don't get that comment. If you think Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much, then you wouldn't be salty, you'd be glad we didn't offer it.

In my mind, we made the perfect offer. We went strong but we didn't overpay, and in fact, we may very well have been the offer that made Boston overpay.

[mlloyd10]

Crowder is the 4th best player on his team - No way he is top 30

[Perishable517]

All the posters who said Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much are salty as f.

It was too much. Ainge being dumb isn't relevant to that.

Yeah, I don't get that comment. If you think Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much, then you wouldn't be salty, you'd be glad we didn't offer it.

In my mind, we made the perfect offer. We went strong but we didn't overpay, and in fact, we may very well have been the offer that made Boston overpay.

For me, it is win-win. I like that Boston overpaid but I didn't like the Bucks offer as I'm one of the very few who feel Brogdon will be a borderline all-star in two seasons (and the engine that has the BucksMachine rolling).

[Profound23]

In the ECF... to who? Never gonna happen.

and you can't possibly be arguing that the Cavs are eye level with the warriors....

I am not, however with how some are falling over themselves on Cleveland getting Crowder and IT you would think they would.

So it's never gonna happen in the ECF now. Great....if Cleveland doesn't make the Finals, no excuses for Lebron is all I ask.

Basketball is a team game. How can we agree to make "no excuses" for LeBron before the season even starts? We will watch the games and then assign fault and credit accordingly. For example, what if IT and Love play poorly or get injured? Certainly that is not LeBron's fault and citing such a reason for Cleveland's elimination would not be an "excuse for LeBron". You using the word "excuses" implies that you believe people are unfairly attempting to avoid placing blame on LeBron for the Cavs losing the 2017 & 2015 Finals. As if you believe he should've done better than 34.8 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg with a 53.4 TS% (which is what he averaged during the 11 Finals games in 2017 & 2015).

Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to get past these Warriors. It's ridiculous to hold the fact that LeBron's Cavs are playing during the same time as arguably the greatest dynasty of all time. LeBron would not be any greater if he was currently coming off his third straight championship in a world where Golden State doesn't exist.

I have seen a lot of people who blamed Lebron's losing on Irving but gave him very little credit for their wins. Those same people then tried to tell me Middleton was better than or equal to Kyrie. Now they are saying Cleveland won the trade and some even saying Crowder alone is a better player than Kyrie with IT being a better pure scorer.

Fast forward to the 2017-18 playoffs. The Cavs are relatively healthy (Crowder, Love, IT, and Lebron) and they lose in the East not even making it to the Finals. Or get swept in the Finals, which they didn't do this year. I don't want to hear from those same people, "Well, that's what happens when you trade away Kyrie, Lebron just needs more help."

[ReasonablySober]

Unless there are serious injury issues, the Cavs aren't losing in the ECF. As for the Finals, sure, they could get swept. Hell, it almost happened last season.