The Jabari Discussion Thread - Back 2/2

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

If Jabari plays on the QO, how scary would that be to drive down the middle again. Can you imagine if he goes down a 3rd time, the ramifications... I wouldn't have the balls to not sign a 5/100m right now if offered, even if the last 2 years were team options.

Exactly, I wouldn't have the balls at the deadline coming up soon to turn down 4/40 if that's all the Bucks are offering.

I'm guessing he would take out a massive insurance policy if he played it out.

[emunney]

If Jabari plays on the QO, how scary would that be to drive down the middle again. Can you imagine if he goes down a 3rd time, the ramifications... I wouldn't have the balls to not sign a 5/100m right now if offered, even if the last 2 years were team options.

Exactly, I wouldn't have the balls at the deadline coming up soon to turn down 4/40 if that's all the Bucks are offering.

I'm guessing he would take out a massive insurance policy if he played it out.

That would be an extremely expensive insurance policy. I mean, those things go both ways. You have to find someone who'll take on that risk. They're expensive for healthy players. For Jabari, it's not a given.

[imithanos]

I don't understand these arguments. He's 10x the player Plumlee is so Jabari should get max out? Giannis signing at $25m has no correlation to any contract we should offer any other player. None.

Of course I will compare any future FA signing or resigning with Giannis' contract. Cause otherwise they will be awful deals and a(nother) sign our FO can't negotiate.
If Jabari was healthy he would ask for Giannis' money and the Bucks would have given it, even if he wouldn't contribute the same as Giannis. He would have the upper hand, cause a team that is looking for a scorer would offer him a max contract and he would push the Bucks for that money.
But NOW he will be coming from a second serious injury. The Bucks have the upper hand and it's up to them to decide.

As I said, I love Jabari, but if he wants more than 15m, I would wait the Bulls to make him an offer and let him go. From one point it's just business.

Maybe I'm reading your comments wrong. Are you saying "Giannis Money" as just another term for 25-30M, or are you saying Giannis money to the actual player? I'm heard people say you "can't" pay player x more than Giannis. They weren't talking about paying the player 25m, they were saying Giannis has to be the highest paid player. That's not reality and you will never get a star next to Giannis if you want him to be the highest paid.

You're not reading them wrong, but it's another thing to pay a player like Deandre Jordan more than the money Giannis gets and another thing to pay Paul George more than Giannis.

As for the trade I posted that included Jabari, I sure don't want to see him with a Bulls jersey, but if the FO sees that his agent demands near max offer or he isn't willing to make the length of the contact with team friendly terms (ie 2+1+1), then I wouldn't hesitate to offer him to the Bulls or any other team (preferably one that could bring a guard in rookie contract in return) before we reach the next off-season, in order to avoid both the cap hold and the risk the Bulls offering him a huge deal.

Btw I keep mentioning the Bulls, cause I don't think another team can offer him a big deal. Even the Nets know that Jabari is a big risk, that can set them back even more than they are now.

[DingleJerry]

Exactly, I wouldn't have the balls at the deadline coming up soon to turn down 4/40 if that's all the Bucks are offering.

I'm guessing he would take out a massive insurance policy if he played it out.

That would be an extremely expensive insurance policy. I mean, those things go both ways. You have to find someone who'll take on that risk. They're expensive for healthy players. For Jabari, it's not a given.

Yea I'm sure he will too now that you bring it up. Obviously we're not experts on how they work. But I recall JerMichael Finley's was written that his injury would have to be career ending. So after his injury he probably could have played again but if he even tried to come back or played in a game again he'd forfeit that money. I'd assume this is all negotiable and obviously bball is different than football but it could get complicated and as we all know, insurance companies will do all they can to stiff someone on a technicality. Orrr, I can just put 40 mil in the bank the second I sign the paper. More many than I or my kids should ever need.

[humanrefutation]

I'm guessing he would take out a massive insurance policy if he played it out.

That would be an extremely expensive insurance policy. I mean, those things go both ways. You have to find someone who'll take on that risk. They're expensive for healthy players. For Jabari, it's not a given.

Yea I'm sure he will too now that you bring it up. Obviously we're not experts on how they work. But I recall JerMichael Finley's was written that his injury would have to be career ending. So after his injury he probably could have played again but if he even tried to come back or played in a game again he'd forfeit that money. I'd assume this is all negotiable and obviously bball is different than football but it could get complicated and as we all know, insurance companies will do all they can to stiff someone on a technicality. Orrr, I can just put 40 mil in the bank the second I sign the paper. More many than I or my kids should ever need.

Jermichael signed that policy BEFORE he was injured, though. That's the issue. Finding an insurance company to accept that risk after an injury would be hard, IMO.

[emunney]

That would be an extremely expensive insurance policy. I mean, those things go both ways. You have to find someone who'll take on that risk. They're expensive for healthy players. For Jabari, it's not a given.

Yea I'm sure he will too now that you bring it up. Obviously we're not experts on how they work. But I recall JerMichael Finley's was written that his injury would have to be career ending. So after his injury he probably could have played again but if he even tried to come back or played in a game again he'd forfeit that money. I'd assume this is all negotiable and obviously bball is different than football but it could get complicated and as we all know, insurance companies will do all they can to stiff someone on a technicality. Orrr, I can just put 40 mil in the bank the second I sign the paper. More many than I or my kids should ever need.

Jermichael signed that policy BEFORE he was injured, though. That's the issue. Finding an insurance company to accept that risk after an injury would be hard, IMO.

I'm not a professional with this stuff, but if you were to offer Jabari say, 4/100 flat, with the first year fully guaranteed, and 10m/yr guaranteed the next three years... I just can't imagine there's any insurance policy he could buy that would cash out more than that. So he'd be playing on the QO or betting that somebody's going to fully guarantee him. Seems like a reaaaaally bad financial play to not take the 55m guaranteed in that scenario.

[paulpressey25]

Years ago in the Redd two ACL's drama GAD came on here and did a good explanation of the insurance policy the league has with Trustmark that at the time insured all the player contracts on behalf of the teams themselves.

I'm assuming a similar policy is still in place, but the general proposition is that all healthy players have their contracts insured by this master league owned policy. And if the player is injured, a portion of the amount owed to said player is covered by Trustmark.

What is recall GAD noting though is that Trustmark had the ability to not insure a certain number of players and/or body parts (knee, etc) for a specific player once said player had those specific catastrophic injuries. So Jabari's rookie deal was likely insured but to get the next contract insured, Trustmark could rule out coverage based on a knee injury.

GAD can comment further, but those were some great threads. Amazed we are right back here a decade later.

[paulpressey25]

I'm not a professional with this stuff, but if you were to offer Jabari say, 4/100 flat, with the first year fully guaranteed, and 10m/yr guaranteed the next three years... I just can't imagine there's any insurance policy he could buy that would cash out more than that. So he'd be playing on the QO or betting that somebody's going to fully guarantee him. Seems like a reaaaaally bad financial play to not take the 55m guaranteed in that scenario.

And that's the scenario I brought up on Twitter last night. Put aside whether you like Jabari as a player, a novel contract structure would be a 4/$100 deal whereby he only gets $10mm each year should he not play in at least 65 games that season. If he plays more than 65 games, you pay him the $25mm. And make the last two years cuttable at $10mm per guaranteed if for any reason the Bucks decide they need to move on, even if he could physically play 65 games.

[Pachinko_]

I don't know if anyone cares about the security of LED's money. i don't.
I'm only worried about the cap space, is there an insurance policy for that?

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

That would be an extremely expensive insurance policy. I mean, those things go both ways. You have to find someone who'll take on that risk. They're expensive for healthy players. For Jabari, it's not a given.

Yea I'm sure he will too now that you bring it up. Obviously we're not experts on how they work. But I recall JerMichael Finley's was written that his injury would have to be career ending. So after his injury he probably could have played again but if he even tried to come back or played in a game again he'd forfeit that money. I'd assume this is all negotiable and obviously bball is different than football but it could get complicated and as we all know, insurance companies will do all they can to stiff someone on a technicality. Orrr, I can just put 40 mil in the bank the second I sign the paper. More many than I or my kids should ever need.

Jermichael signed that policy BEFORE he was injured, though. That's the issue. Finding an insurance company to accept that risk after an injury would be hard, IMO.

There will definitely be a higher risk premium but he would be healthy in February when he signs it. He would only need insurance from February to July (if he wants the max as a RFA). I think there is a neutral spot where the insurance company thinks the risk is 1/50 he gets injured during that time frame and Jabari could pay something like $2m for $80m. I'm way over simplifying it and there will be a lot of number crunching but there is probably a scenario where it would the company sees the odds in their favor but Jabari is still protected.

[Ayt]

I'm not a professional with this stuff, but if you were to offer Jabari say, 4/100 flat, with the first year fully guaranteed, and 10m/yr guaranteed the next three years... I just can't imagine there's any insurance policy he could buy that would cash out more than that. So he'd be playing on the QO or betting that somebody's going to fully guarantee him. Seems like a reaaaaally bad financial play to not take the 55m guaranteed in that scenario.

And that's the scenario I brought up on Twitter last night. Put aside whether you like Jabari as a player, a novel contract structure would be a 4/$100 deal whereby he only gets $10mm each year should he not play in at least 65 games that season. If he plays more than 65 games, you pay him the $25mm. And make the last two years cuttable at $10mm per guaranteed if for any reason the Bucks decide they need to move on, even if he could physically play 65 games.

Is a contract like that possible under the CBA?

[paulpressey25]

Is a contract like that possible under the CBA?

Evidently yes and no based on what they are saying about Embiid's deal. Under Embiid's deal they can cut him at the end of the season if he plays less than 1,650 minutes AND misses 25 or more games due to specified foot or back injuries. If they utilize that provision and cut him, he gets a certain buyout number.

What they don't evidently allow is the Sixers to pay Embiid less money in a given year if he misses part of said year but still keep him under contract. Sixers have to cut him to get any financial relief.

[MickeyDavis]

I don't know if anyone cares about the security of LED's money. i don't.
I'm only worried about the cap space, is there an insurance policy for that?

Yeah I brought that up earlier. I don't care about insurance policies and stuff like that. LED have plenty of cash. It's all about the cap to me.

[AussieBuck]

Problem is dudes with no insurance aren't very tradable.

[MickeyDavis]

Problem is dudes with no insurance aren't very tradable.

Good point. I guess if he's healthy we wouldn't be looking to trade him and if he's injured no one would want him, insurance or no insurance.

[Gianstoppable]

Lets just make him wear 2 of these

He would look like Forrest Gump

[raferfenix]

I don't know if anyone cares about the security of LED's money. i don't.
I'm only worried about the cap space, is there an insurance policy for that?

Yeah I brought that up earlier. I don't care about insurance policies and stuff like that. LED have plenty of cash. It's all about the cap to me.

It might be partially speculation but haven't there been reports about LED skimping on expenses in other places?

If they are feeling the pinch of how much they are spending that is something that comes into consideration.

Granted it should have before they extended Snell much less the crazy contracts we threw out the offseason before, but still.

[raferfenix]

Hmmm...

Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid's five-year, $146.5 million maximum extension is essentially guaranteed but protects the franchise financially should Embiid suffer a contractually specific catastrophic injury, league sources told ESPN.

Embiid, 23, signed the rookie-scale max extension Tuesday, with the $146.5 million total for the deal based on the NBA's new salary-cap projections for the 2018-19 season.

For the Sixers to curb the ultimate value of the extension, it would take the triggering of several severe circumstances detailed in a 35-page-plus contract

Here's how a perfect storm of calamity would have to unfold for Embiid to earn any less than the full $146.5 million: Across each of the final four seasons of the extension, ending with the 2022-23 season, the 76ers could waive Embiid for a financial benefit if he's lost because of a contractually agreed-upon injury that causes him to miss 25 or more regular-season games and if he plays fewer than 1,650 minutes, league sources said.

Specific injuries are laid out in the contract and include only past problem areas with Embiid's feet and back, sources said. Embiid has to miss 25 or more regular-season games because of injuries to those areas, and play fewer than 1,650 minutes, for Philadelphia to have the option of releasing him for cost savings.

If Embiid met that narrow criteria and the Sixers decided to waive him after the 2018-19 season, he would receive $84.2 million of his full contract; after the 2019-20 season, $98.2 million; after the 2020-21 season, $113.3 million; and after the 2021-22 season, $129.4 million.

What's more, if Embiid played a minimum of 1,650 regular-season minutes in three consecutive years during the extension, or three out of four including the 2017-18 season, those benchmarks would eliminate the possibility of a reduction in the contract, league sources said.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20985023/joel-embiid-extension-protects-philadelphia-76ers-case-contractually-specific-catastrophic-injury

[MickeyDavis]

It's true that many rich people are cheap and stingy. I have no idea if that applies to LED. Their cash flow from the Bucks will be a lot higher starting next season.

[greekbuck34]

Those are terrible protections for the 76ers and they don't even cover knee injuries too.
If Embiid picks another huge foot/back injury and his team decides to waive him they still have to pay him at least $86 million.
And that's only in case Embiid didn't manage to play 57 games in the regular season first.

So in the end if Embiid gets another injury the 76ers are either half screwed(foot/back injury/ less than 57 games) or completely screwed for 5 years.

I wouldn't sign Jabari for the same deal even if it covered his knees. That's still too much money on our salary cap for the remainder of Giannis contract.