Khris Middleton Thread

[Ron Swanson]

Of all the things to rip Middleton for, not being "efficient enough" playing off Giannis' gravity is......something. He's currently at 60% TS on 21.6 points per-36 and matching his career high in 3PT attempts at 39% on >6 attempts per game. If you guys were to just keep harping on him for how he struggles against pressure/half court traps and the occasional defensive lapses, then I'd probably just nod and agree, but Jesus man. Actually look at what you're watching sometimes...

[Ron Swanson]

LOL No way bojan can carry the ball handling load, or the defensive responsibility khris has these past 6 years

Agreed. But so many of the Middleton discussions do not contain helpful perspective.

a) Bojan is not as good a player as Khris. But he's not $105 million worse, especially when you're looking at also keeping Brogdon under that scenario.

b) We aren't looking at the last six-years. During that time, Chris Paul was a lot better than SGA. We're looking at the next five years, and opportunity cost of using $178 million.

YOU COULD HAVE KEPT BROGDON AND KHRIS , KEEPING ONE DIDN"T PREVENT YOU FROM KEEPING THE OTHER AND IN FACT SIGNING BOJAN MEANS YOU LOSE G HILL

This, this , and this.

[DingleJerry]

Yup, 38% last year on by far his highest 3PA attempts of his career and still got ripped for his shooting and folks fanning over getting 'better shooters' who if you actually look at the numbers are clearly worse shooters. But since they don't watch them everyday they don't see the ups and downs they have as well.

I agree his issues with the ballhandling and pressures and all that, clearly his weakness. Shooting though is fine.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

bojan will turn 31 this season and is a dick. hed be 33 when Giannis supermax would kick in. the smart money is on building around bojan. **** unbelieveable forward thinking here

[DavidDunn21]

Well, in the year he did get hurt the team was bad without him and then got hot when he came back. Basically every ratingo n the team improved and the team started winning. I'm generally on the side of 'man that contract is nuts, I don' t see why he's worth double the other guys'. But in a way we did have that exact thing happen a couple years back. But of course it was pre-Bucks being actually good. I assume Kidd was still coach, but didn't double check if that was the same year he got fired.

That's more of a narrative based argument though, the analytics didn't back it up at the time.
The Bucks were bad under Kidd in general. Jabari got hurt the same day Khris came back, so it was easy to craft that narrative. But the next year where Jabari was out till Groundhog Day, the Bucks struggled out of the gate and the Bledsoe trade was on some level a last ditch effort to win with Kidd.
The nucleus of All Star starter Giannis, healthy Khris and healthy Eric won 44 games in the East.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

[Turk Nowitzki]

Well, in the year he did get hurt the team was bad without him and then got hot when he came back. Basically every ratingo n the team improved and the team started winning. I'm generally on the side of 'man that contract is nuts, I don' t see why he's worth double the other guys'. But in a way we did have that exact thing happen a couple years back. But of course it was pre-Bucks being actually good. I assume Kidd was still coach, but didn't double check if that was the same year he got fired.

That's more of a narrative based argument though, the analytics didn't back it up at the time.
The Bucks were bad under Kidd in general. Jabari got hurt the same day Khris came back, so it was easy to craft that narrative. But the next year where Jabari was out till Groundhog Day, the Bucks struggled out of the gate and the Bledsoe trade was on some level a last ditch effort to win with Kidd.
The nucleus of All Star starter Giannis, healthy Khris and healthy Eric won 44 games in the East.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

Someone recently told me on here to "ignore all analytics".

Ignore all analytics.

[Fotis St]

I honestly believe we will play better overall without Khris.
Its not Khris, its the stupid scheme we have built to utilize him.
Increasing Bledsoe's and Brook's usage pretty much covers the loss.
We will probably be better on D, and faster overall.
Giving the ball to Khris after any rebound to bring the ball up, is beyond stupid.
Now Bled and Giannis will bring the ball up, as they should.
I am optimistic we will keep winning.

OT: which site should I use for Avatar ? Photobucket blured (paid service)

[paulpressey25]

YOU COULD HAVE KEPT BROGDON AND KHRIS , KEEPING ONE DIDN"T PREVENT YOU FROM KEEPING THE OTHER AND IN FACT SIGNING BOJAN MEANS YOU LOSE G HILL

From the other thread. For me, I don't blame the Bucks owners for not matching Brogdon, given the economics below. But they are on the clock with the huge Middleton contract.

Bucks rough payroll is $130.5
Luxury tax is $132mm

If they keep Brogdon, they don't have the cap space to sign George Hill (but do most the other guys). So take Hill's contract ($9.1mm) off and you're left with $121.4mm. Add in Brogdon's $21mm

Total payroll = $142.4 million. $10mm over luxury tax:

First $5mm = $7.5mm tax
Next $5mm = $8.75mm tax
Loss of shared revenue (since over tax- 50% of lux tax divided among non-tax paying teams) = $6mm (complete guesstimate on my part but likely close)

So Brodgon would cost about another $22mm this year, making him a $43 million dollar decision.

Based on rising salaries and a Giannis supermax, quite likely that Brogdon's entire $21mm is over the tax line in subsequent years.
First $5mm = $7.5mm
Next $5mm = 8.75mm
Next $5mm = $12.5mm
Next $5mm = $16.25mm
Next $1mm = $3.75mm

So Brogdon's tax is $48.75mm per year plus loss of revenue sharing ($6mm??). Add in his $21mm salary an we're talking a $75 million a year decision

Repeater Tax: If Brogdon's $21mm is in a repeater tax year, the tax on it would be $69.75mm plus loss of shared revenue ($6mm). So now Brogdon becomes a $96 million dollar a year player.

Could the Bucks work around their roster in future years to minimize tax impact? Sure. But no matter how you cut it, keeping both Brogdon and Middleton was going to cost them $100's of millions all things being equal.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Well, in the year he did get hurt the team was bad without him and then got hot when he came back. Basically every ratingo n the team improved and the team started winning. I'm generally on the side of 'man that contract is nuts, I don' t see why he's worth double the other guys'. But in a way we did have that exact thing happen a couple years back. But of course it was pre-Bucks being actually good. I assume Kidd was still coach, but didn't double check if that was the same year he got fired.

That's more of a narrative based argument though, the analytics didn't back it up at the time.
The Bucks were bad under Kidd in general. Jabari got hurt the same day Khris came back, so it was easy to craft that narrative. But the next year where Jabari was out till Groundhog Day, the Bucks struggled out of the gate and the Bledsoe trade was on some level a last ditch effort to win with Kidd.
The nucleus of All Star starter Giannis, healthy Khris and healthy Eric won 44 games in the East.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

we were 4-6 before Bledsoe arrived....then 40-31 after with him in the lineup. we took boston to 7 games in the playoffs and almost pulled that upset off. solid offense and bad defense despite the personnel that became the top rated defense just a year later. coaching change mid season and the ultimate trash supporting cast to the top 3. brogdon had his annual mid season injury that cost him 35 games..... the whole thing was a mess but it was still the best winning percentage other than FTD for the previous 17 seasons based SOLELY off bledsoe, Giannis, and middleton being a strong solid core.

please avoid narrative based commentary about that year. there were STRONG signs that we had a core we needed to finally compete.

[Diggr14]

I think most of us that wanted to resign Brogdon were ok with letting Middleton walk or go in a S&T similar to what we did with Malcolm.


IMO Middleton is a worse passer, shooter, ballhandler than Brogdon. He used to be a decent defender, but that regressed last season too. Im still perplexed why you give a guy on the other side of his peak a 5 year max when you have a efficient younger player willing to take half the money at 4 years.


Middleton wasnt worth the max then, isnt worth it now. The ONLY reason to resign Middleton and dump Brogdon was that if in managements estimation it was more likely to keep Giannis around. Even that is a stretch to make. If winning at all costs is Giannis end goal.. you keep Brogdon.

[Ron Swanson]

Nah, Shafty hit the nail on the head. Crush the organization for being cheapskates if you want, that's a valid critique for letting Brogdon go. But you Bogdonavic truthers are hilarious.

Swapping out Middleton AND George Hill for Brogdon and Bojan makes you a worse team now and in the future. Like, it's not even debatable. You could've retained both Brogdon and Middleton while only sacrificing Hill, luxury tax be damned.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

we were 37-9 with hill in the lineup last year. 23-13 without him.
i'll take hill, 3 draft picks, and 50+ million over brogdon every single day of the week

agreed with several here on the mids vs bogan debate. not only would that have hurt us over the next two years but no other single move would have put us at greater risk of losing Giannis than that one.

[emunney]

bojan will turn 31 this season and is a dick. hed be 33 when Giannis supermax would kick in. the smart money is on building around bojan. **** unbelieveable forward thinking here

The way I'm thinking about this team is basically that Giannis is the core. If we happen to draft or trade for another core piece during his tenure, and ffs I hope we do, great. Until then, these big salary slots should be filled with the best players we can get... I'm looking at it more like college recruiting. We will have these guys for 3-4 years, not for the balance of Giannis' career. Team's going to look almost 100% different by the time Bojan ages out, whether we have Bojan or not. That said I'm shedding no tears over not having Bojan.

[Shaffty]

Nah, Shafty hit the nail on the head. Crush the organization for being cheapskates if you want, that's a valid critique for letting Brogdon go. But you Bogdonavic truthers are hilarious.

Swapping out Middleton AND George Hill for Brogdon and Bojan makes you a worse team now and in the future. Like, it's not even debatable. You could've retained both Brogdon and Middleton while only sacrificing Hill, luxury tax be damned.

This khris argument has us all bickering with eachother when we should be asking the real questions. Like who Killed jeffery epstein.

or why didnt the owners pay the tax when they option arose.

[paulpressey25]

But you Bogdonavic truthers are hilarious.

Swapping out Middleton AND George Hill for Brogdon and Bojan makes you a worse team now and in the future.

Eh, I think the idea of a major step down from Middleton to Bogdanovic carried a lot more heft before last Friday's game. It's early sample size theater, but Bogdan is averaging 19.8ppg on 46%/43%/91%FT percentages. And the 3's he's doing on volume at 6.4 per game.

As for Hill, I would tried to keep all of them, which again also could have been done if you made another salary move (Ersan or other).

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

bojan will turn 31 this season and is a dick. hed be 33 when Giannis supermax would kick in. the smart money is on building around bojan. **** unbelieveable forward thinking here

The way I'm thinking about this team is basically that Giannis is the core. If we happen to draft or trade for another core piece during his tenure, and ffs I hope we do, great. Until then, these big salary slots should be filled with the best players we can get... I'm looking at it more like college recruiting. We will have these guys for 3-4 years, not for the balance of Giannis' career. Team's going to look almost 100% different by the time Bojan ages out, whether we have Bojan or not. That said I'm shedding no tears over not having Bojan.

the way im looking at it is that middleton has been giannis running mate since the beginning, is our clear #2.... and at age 28 coming off 60 wins and losing him for anybody besides a CLEAR UPGRADE would be goddam awful. and that includes older punk asses who have bounced around 4 teams in 3 years no matter how well they shoot.

[Shaffty]

But you Bogdonavic truthers are hilarious.

Swapping out Middleton AND George Hill for Brogdon and Bojan makes you a worse team now and in the future.

Eh, I think the idea of a major step down from Middleton to Bogdanovic carried a lot more heft before last Friday's game. It's early sample size theater, but Bogdan is averaging 19.8ppg on 46%/43%/91%FT percentages. And the 3's he's doing on volume at 6.4 per game.

As for Hill, I would tried to keep all of them, which again also could have been done if you made another salary move (Ersan or other).

according to my cap expert frank Madden, the only way you can retain Hill is if you convince him to take about 2m less this year

[PG Graveyard]

Nah, Shafty hit the nail on the head. Crush the organization for being cheapskates if you want, that's a valid critique for letting Brogdon go. But you Bogdonavic truthers are hilarious.

Swapping out Middleton AND George Hill for Brogdon and Bojan makes you a worse team now and in the future. Like, it's not even debatable. You could've retained both Brogdon and Middleton while only sacrificing Hill, luxury tax be damned.

There is also no way of knowing whether Bojan wanted to be in Milwaukee. Plus we also lose 3 draft picks to help sustain this core moving forward.

[slos]

There was a simple way to keep everyone and not even pay the tax. Bucks should have packaged Leuer, Ilyasova with the 2024 FRP (top 5 protected) for cap space. Teams like Atlanta, Knicks etc would take it. Just take a look at the numbers.

1. Middleton.....$30,603,448
2. Giannis........$25,842,697
3. Brogdon.......$20,000,000
4. Bledsoe........$15,625,000
5. Lopez..........$12,093,024
6. Hill.............$9,133,907
7. Wilson.........$2,961,120
8. DDV............$2,905,800
9. Pat.............$1,723,050
10. Bender.......$1,678,854
11. Korver........$1,620,564
12. Brown........$1,618,520
13. Thanasis.....$1,445,697
-Hawes.......$2,007,058
-Sanders.....$1,865,546
-Hill..........$1,000,000
-total........$132,124,285

Bucks would be just under the tax with 13 players. They would need some really small discounts from Middleton, Brogdon, Lopez, Hill to complete their roster and stay under the $132,627,000 tax line. Actually most of the money needed could come from Brogdon, since his 4y/85mil would start at 18,9 from the Bucks with 8% raises.

Bledsoe.........Hill
Brogdon........DDV........Pat
Middleton......Brown.....Korver
Giannis.........Wilson.....Thanasis
Lopez...........Bender

We would be fine...

[Shaffty]

There was a simple way to keep everyone and not even pay the tax. Bucks should have packaged Leuer, Ilyasova with the 2024 FRP (top 5 protected) for cap space. Teams like Atlanta, Knicks etc would take it. Just take a look at the numbers.

1. Middleton.....$30,603,448
2. Giannis........$25,842,697
3. Brogdon.......$20,000,000
4. Bledsoe........$15,625,000
5. Lopez..........$12,093,024
6. Hill.............$9,133,907
7. Wilson.........$2,961,120
8. DDV............$2,905,800
9. Pat.............$1,723,050
10. Bender.......$1,678,854
11. Korver........$1,620,564
12. Brown........$1,618,520
13. Thanasis.....$1,445,697
-Hawes.......$2,007,058
-Sanders.....$1,865,546
-Hill..........$1,000,000
-total........$132,124,285

Bucks would be just under the tax with 13 players. They would need some really small discounts from Middleton, Brogdon, Lopez, Hill to complete their roster and stay under the $132,627,000 tax line. Actually most of the money needed could come from Brogdon, since his 4y/85mil would start at 18,9 from the Bucks with 8% raises.

Bledsoe.........Hill
Brogdon........DDV........Pat
Middleton......Brown.....Korver
Giannis.........Wilson.....Thanasis
Lopez...........Bender

We would be fine...

if you completely ignore cap holds and free agent signing procedure sure.