Giannis - 2X MVP - FMVP - DPOY - Offseason discussion

[Ron Swanson]

I just think that by the numbers Giannis didn't have anything more than a weak MVP year by recent historical standards (outside the box numbers). It's really that simple. I mean, if this were last year's statistical profile (32.1 PER, 63% TS, 11.2 BPM, .281 WS/48, +11.0 on/off, 5th in RPM) with this team's record? Then yeah, I think he'd be a shoe-in MVP winner and I'd be furious that the media was trying to argue Jokic or Embiid over him.

[jschligs]

It clearly takes into account defense or Giannis wouldn't have won any MVPs. Even if Giannis is the best player in the world when he's on the floor (which is highly debatable), he's off the floor so often that it has to be a consideration. Jokic has played 1060 more minutes than Giannis over the past three seasons. At Giannis' average of 32.1 mpg, that's equivalent to Jokic playing 33 more games than Giannis.

It absolutely does not. Jokic isn’t anywhere near Giannis’ level defensively and it’s insanely obvious. Giannis led his team to top 1-3 finishes in the East while only playing 32 minutes because he didn’t have to play more. Sure it’s debatable if he’s the best of the floor, but Giannis was a DPOY winner or finalist. Jokic isn’t anywhere near that. Giannis had a statistical great season the last 5 years on both sides of the ball.

Giannis isn't anywhere near Jokic's level offensively and that's also insanely obvious. It works both ways. I'm also of the opinion that Giannis's defense is generally overrated.

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

[skones]

It absolutely does not. Jokic isn’t anywhere near Giannis’ level defensively and it’s insanely obvious. Giannis led his team to top 1-3 finishes in the East while only playing 32 minutes because he didn’t have to play more. Sure it’s debatable if he’s the best of the floor, but Giannis was a DPOY winner or finalist. Jokic isn’t anywhere near that. Giannis had a statistical great season the last 5 years on both sides of the ball.

Giannis isn't anywhere near Jokic's level offensively and that's also insanely obvious. It works both ways. I'm also of the opinion that Giannis's defense is generally overrated.

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

[CharityStripe34]

Just such a bummer the Boston game went the way it did. If that game was even remotely competitive even in a loss, if we win out and get to 60, Philly/Denver lost one or two more, Giannis may have been able to steal MVP. Jokic is missing games now, Embiid has cooled off a bit and Philly has lost games. If we finished like 5-6 games ahead of Denver/Philly in the loss column, Giannis may have had it. I just think the Celtics game was a death sentence for his candidacy, unfortunately.

If we had beat the Celtics Giannis would have sat down for the rest of the games since we would only need 1 more win to lock the 1st seed so he would lose steam just by not playing. It doesn't matter. One more MVP does little things for his legacy. From now on it's only finals and rings.

Lets get Lopez the DPOY and next season we will try for Jrue.

Three or more MVPs would place him in a class with these guys:

Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Michael and LeBron. That's it. Basically, nearly half of the top twenty players ever.

He's only 28 so he'll have his chances to win one more.

But another epic playoff run capped off by winning a title and a Finals MVP certainly vaults him up to rarified air:

Durant, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Michael, Magic, Bird, Kareem and I'll throw Wilt and Russell on there even though it wasn't around before 1969 in the shot-clock era.

[jschligs]

Giannis isn't anywhere near Jokic's level offensively and that's also insanely obvious. It works both ways. I'm also of the opinion that Giannis's defense is generally overrated.

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

Please quote where I said it's only PPGGGZZZZ...try not to be a dick.

[Licensed to Il]

Just such a bummer the Boston game went the way it did. If that game was even remotely competitive even in a loss, if we win out and get to 60, Philly/Denver lost one or two more, Giannis may have been able to steal MVP. Jokic is missing games now, Embiid has cooled off a bit and Philly has lost games. If we finished like 5-6 games ahead of Denver/Philly in the loss column, Giannis may have had it. I just think the Celtics game was a death sentence for his candidacy, unfortunately.

If we had beat the Celtics Giannis would have sat down for the rest of the games since we would only need 1 more win to lock the 1st seed so he would lose steam just by not playing. It doesn't matter. One more MVP does little things for his legacy. From now on it's only finals and rings.

Lets get Lopez the DPOY and next season we will try for Jrue.

Three or more MVPs would place him in a class with these guys:

Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Michael and LeBron. That's it. Basically, nearly half of the top twenty players ever.

He's only 28 so he'll have his chances to win one more.

My son is just starting to love the history of basketball. He asked how good Giannis is. I said he will be a top ten player of all time. Another MVP and title and that’s sort of a lock, right?

[Ron Swanson]

Well, no. Jokic absolutely has holes to his offensive game. He doesn't apply consistent rim pressure due to athletic and speed/quickness limitations, doesn't generate a ton of foul pressure or FT opportunities without flopping/grifting, and he's a low-volume, streaky 3PT shooter (he ain't Dirk). He's probably one of the 5 or 6 best passers and about as automatic of a mid-range and around the basket big-man as I've ever seen, but saying he's essentially this perfect basketball player with some fluctuating defensive deficiencies is big hyperbole and a bridge too far for my liking.

[soxperry]

Giannis isn't anywhere near Jokic's level offensively and that's also insanely obvious. It works both ways. I'm also of the opinion that Giannis's defense is generally overrated.

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

Giannis's thing on offense is his efficiency. I dont know enough about total offensive impact to know if you are right about Jokic but i would say the test is the playoffs. He has a fully healthy supporting cast, now. No excuses.

And im not talking about mvp anymore im talking about greatness. If Jokic is as great as the metrics say he is, then let's see that finals appearance.

[CharityStripe34]

Well, no. Jokic absolutely has holes to his offensive game. He doesn't apply consistent rim pressure due to athletic and speed/quickness limitations, doesn't generate a ton of foul pressure or FT opportunities without flopping/grifting, and he's a low-volume, streaky 3PT shooter (he ain't Dirk). He's probably one of the 5 or 6 best passers and about as automatic of a mid-range and around the basket big-man as I've ever seen, but saying he's essentially this perfect basketball player with some fluctuating defensive deficiencies is big hyperbole and a bridge too far for my liking.

This is the problem with thinking the "advanced numbers" are perfect. They are helpful and provide insight into a player's production and impact but can be as imperfect as the human eye. And this isn't a knock against Joker, but this year's MVP debate (at least a couple of months ago) felt a lot like a "normal stats vs. advanced stats vs. eye-test/narrative" culture war.

[greekbuck34]

Giannis isn't anywhere near Jokic's level offensively and that's also insanely obvious. It works both ways. I'm also of the opinion that Giannis's defense is generally overrated.

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

How can we take you seriously when you think that Giannis is being overrated defensively?
A former DPOY, a player who can guard 1-5, help defend like nobody else, rebound, being insanely clutch on defense, play as small ball center or rim protect as a PF. He is a top 3 playoff defender in the last 4-5 post seasons. Offenses literrally are trying everything to avoid Giannis in their offense which is the exact oppossite from Jokic who is being hunted relentlessly.

You are right offensively . Jokic is a genius. His only hole is his takeover ability long term mainly because of his motor though. The only time he was forced to attack non stop was against the Warriors last season because they don't have anybody to stop a big man inside and Jokic had nobody else to attack for him. He looked dead by game 3. Absolutly gassed. That's how much he lasted. 3 games in the first round. Not because it was his first time averaging more than 30 PPG but because he was losing most of his energy trying to defend and allowing wide open layups at the other side of the court.
That will not stop. He will be hunted till the end of his career.

[skones]

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

How can we take you seriously when you think that Giannis is being overrated defensively?
A former DPOY, a player who can guard 1-5, help defend like nobody else, rebound, being insanely clutch on defense, play as small ball center or rim protect as a PF. He is a top 3 playoff defender in the last 4-5 post seasons. Offenses literrally are trying everything to avoid Giannis in their offense which is the exact oppossite from Jokic who is being hunted relentlessly.

I don't know? Watch him play?

He's pretty bad when he's asked to step out on the perimeter and guard wing players one on one, he plays too high, overcommits, doesn't have the fluidity in his hips to keep his balance. To put this into perspective, in isolation, Giannis gives up the same .96 PPP that Pat Connaughton does. He doesn't have the IQ to be a full on anchor of a defense and that's why this team struggled mightily all last year because that guy is Brook, NOT Giannis. Giannis is a swiss army knife off ball, but on ball, he's just a whole bag of blegh. He also isn't having anywhere near the defensive season he did during the 19-20 campaign. That's evident given how he's fallen asleep on that end far more than he has in years prior. He's good, don't get me wrong, but when people scream "Why isn't Giannis guarding X player in the playoffs he won DPOY!!!!!!!!!" it's easy to sit here and say, "well, we do that because he's so good at everything else, we need him doing A, B, and C instead" but the truth of it is, "we don't want him guarding a guy on the perimeter on an island because he's not good at it."

[skones]

Well, no. Jokic absolutely has holes to his offensive game. He doesn't apply consistent rim pressure due to athletic and speed/quickness limitations, doesn't generate a ton of foul pressure or FT opportunities without flopping/grifting, and he's a low-volume, streaky 3PT shooter (he ain't Dirk). He's probably one of the 5 or 6 best passers and about as automatic of a mid-range and around the basket big-man as I've ever seen, but saying he's essentially this perfect basketball player with some fluctuating defensive deficiencies is big hyperbole and a bridge too far for my liking.

He's 3rd in the league when it comes to FTA at the 5 for starters. With that being said, I guess I don't consider things that come as a direct result of a physical limitation as a "hole" to someone's game, but that's just me. From a skillset standpoint, the guy is just the complete package at the 5. Inside, outside, "streaky" but hits at 39%, GOAT level passing, the movement, the awareness, it's all there.

And I didn't say he was a "perfect basketball" player either, immediately following it with defensive deficiencies given I was speaking to his offensive repertoire is one hell of a straw man.

[greekbuck34]

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

How can we take you seriously when you think that Giannis is being overrated defensively?
A former DPOY, a player who can guard 1-5, help defend like nobody else, rebound, being insanely clutch on defense, play as small ball center or rim protect as a PF. He is a top 3 playoff defender in the last 4-5 post seasons. Offenses literrally are trying everything to avoid Giannis in their offense which is the exact oppossite from Jokic who is being hunted relentlessly.

I don't know? Watch him play?

He's pretty bad when he's asked to step out on the perimeter and guard wing players one on one, he plays too high, overcommits, doesn't have the fluidity in his hips to keep his balance. To put this into perspective, in isolation, Giannis gives up the same .96 PPP that Pat Connaughton does. He doesn't have the IQ to be a full on anchor of a defense and that's why this team struggled mightily all last year because that guy is Brook, NOT Giannis. Giannis is a swiss army knife off ball, but on ball, he's just a whole bag of blegh. He also isn't having anywhere near the defensive season he did during the 19-20 campaign. That's evident given how he's fallen asleep on that end far more than he has in years prior. He's good, don't get me wrong, but when people scream "Why isn't Giannis guarding X player in the playoffs he won DPOY!!!!!!!!!" it's easy to sit here and say, "well, we do that because he's so good at everything else, we need him doing A, B, and C instead" but the truth of it is, "we don't want him guarding a guy on the perimeter on an island because he's not good at it."

Are you talking about random regular season games when its obvious he is cruising himself at times because he has to score 30 PPG?
Playoff Giannis and even 4th quarter clutch regular season Giannis is a way different animal.

Our prime Championship lineups are with GIannis as the small ball center because there are 5-6 teams each year that make Brook Lopez simply unplayable. I'm 100% sure in order to beat the Celtics at one point we will have to bench Lopez and play Giannis with Crowder as the 4/5 and simply switch everything on defense.

[skones]

I just flat out disagree on the notion that Giannis' offensive level isn't anywhere close to Jokic's.

I mean, you can disagree all you want, but you'd just be flat out wrong. Giannis is a bulldozer, Jokic is genius. There's a stark difference. Jokic has no holes in his offensive arsenal and you can add that he's one of the best passers this game has ever seen. Jokic is having prime Curry level impacts on the offensive end. As good as he has been at scoring over the years, Giannis hasn't come close to sniffing that echelon of offensive impact. There are levels to this.

There's more to offense than PPGZZZZZZ

Please quote where I said it's only PPGGGZZZZ...try not to be a dick.

Okay, what makes you think they live on the same planet? The only argument that would be made is that Giannis scores more. There's not a whole lot else.

[skones]

Are you talking about random regular season games when its obvious he is cruising himself at times because he has to score 30 PPG?
Playoff Giannis and even 4th quarter clutch regular season Giannis is a way different animal.

Our prime Championship lineups are with GIannis as the small ball center because there are 5-6 teams each year that make Brook Lopez simply unplayable. I'm 100% sure in order to beat the Celtics at one point we will have to bench Lopez and play Giannis with Crowder as the 4/5 and simply switch everything on defense.

This is a consistency league. It's not "random regular season games" it's the body of work that plays into winning these awards. I don't know why you'd sweep that under the rug when that's how the award actually works. It's disingenuous to mention that he's a DPOY as an argument you made, and then boil an 82 game season down to "random regular season games" as if they don't matter.

[Ron Swanson]

Well, no. Jokic absolutely has holes to his offensive game. He doesn't apply consistent rim pressure due to athletic and speed/quickness limitations, doesn't generate a ton of foul pressure or FT opportunities without flopping/grifting, and he's a low-volume, streaky 3PT shooter (he ain't Dirk). He's probably one of the 5 or 6 best passers and about as automatic of a mid-range and around the basket big-man as I've ever seen, but saying he's essentially this perfect basketball player with some fluctuating defensive deficiencies is big hyperbole and a bridge too far for my liking.

He's 3rd in the league when it comes to FTA at the 5 for starters. With that being said, I guess I don't consider things that come as a direct result of a physical limitation as a "hole" to someone's game, but that's just me. From a skillset standpoint, the guy is just the complete package at the 5. Inside, outside, "streaky" but hits at 39%, GOAT level passing, the movement, the awareness, it's all there.

And I didn't say he was a "perfect basketball" player either, immediately following it with defensive deficiencies given I was speaking to his offensive repertoire is one hell of a straw man.

I mean, ok? That's not really how that works though. I would view anything that mitigates your effectiveness in certain situations (transition offense, ability to collapse a defense, off-ball pick & roll effectiveness, lob threat gravity) as a deficiency to one's offensive game, but I don't really feel the need to get into a "what is talent/skill" debate so we'll just agree to disagree.

[Siefer]

[greekbuck34]

Are you talking about random regular season games when its obvious he is cruising himself at times because he has to score 30 PPG?
Playoff Giannis and even 4th quarter clutch regular season Giannis is a way different animal.

Our prime Championship lineups are with GIannis as the small ball center because there are 5-6 teams each year that make Brook Lopez simply unplayable. I'm 100% sure in order to beat the Celtics at one point we will have to bench Lopez and play Giannis with Crowder as the 4/5 and simply switch everything on defense.

This is a consistency league. It's not "random regular season games" it's the body of work that plays into winning these awards. I don't know why you'd sweep that under the rug when that's how the award actually works. It's disingenuous to mention that he's a DPOY as an argument you made, and then boil an 82 game season down to "random regular season games" as if they don't matter.

Again you said Giannis is overrated on defense. You are a bucks fan and you take in account how Giannis defends against the Detroit Pistons or the Pacers and the Spurs in a 82 game season to rate him or how he defended without Lopez or any other big man in the roster a few months after winning the championship. Some things are obvious and are proven long ago.

He can switch 1-5.
He can play small ball center with a tough PF besides him at championship level.
He can play PF with the best help defense in the league at the best level possible.
He has by far the best defensive FG% in the league.
He is the No1 defender on both defending the big man and the ball handler in the PNR.
He is a top 5 rim protector.
He collapses offenses just by his mere presense on the court because teams are trying to avoid attacking him or avoid passing the ball through his arms.

[DingleJerry]

I do disagree with the Giannis is overrated on D point. However, when talking about a regular season award you can't just say "well yea he doesn't try in in regular season" as a reason to overlook things. That's literally what the award is about.

[greekbuck34]

I do disagree with the Giannis is overrated on D point. However, when talking about a regular season award you can't just say "well yea he doesn't try in in regular season" as a reason to overlook things. That's literally what the award is about.

When Skones made the comment it wasn't clear if he was talking about the regular season or just in general. He is talking about regular season games and the MVP. It's meaningless to me what Giannis is doing in the regular season after our championship. It's great to watch him play when he is locked in against a playoff team but in the end it doesn't really matter. We just wait for the playoffs and I know exactly what his true level on both sides of the court there.