Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - PatBev: AJJ has "bright future"

[ShootingtheJ]

Ingram would keep us in the 2nd apron, so we couldn't do this unless the number of players swapped matches, and I'm not sure what we'd even have left to send out with Ingram to get a couple of good players back.

Ingram is $36 million, Brook, Bobby, and Pat is $44.9 million. We'd be comfortably under the 2nd apron.

Not if they are planning to use the TPMLE to sign another player. This will put them right back up against the 2nd apron.

If they flipped him out for other players, they'd likely save more money. As for the TPMLE, they'd likely be able to land someone just using part of it. Anything to separate us from minimum offers

[bdpecore]

Let me tell you a tale of an Eastern Conference Finals series against Toronto….

BI was worse

Yeah…. I’m going to go ahead and disagree.

EDIT: anyway, I think the converse is also true, I’m not sure Middleton has ever had as good of a playoff series as Ingram did a couple years ago. 27/6/6 on elite percentages.

Mids two best performances may have been the past couple years.

Also, Ingram vs Middleton playoff performances is an odd reason to not pair them.

It's not fair to compare playoff stats as Ingram has only played in 10 playoff games versus 80 for Khris. Also supporting cast plays a major role when you have Giannis as your #1 versus CJ McCollum. Now this doesn't negate the production of Khris who we all know can take over games in the playoffs. It only shows the irrelevance of BI's playoff experience.

[soxperry]

Some thoughts about an Ingram trade..

- I’m not using Midds under any circumstances since it would be a downgrade for the next season and our window is now.

- Pels seemed to like the idea splitting Ingram into Capela and Okongwu. I have Brook and Bobby an even better package.

- Pat needs to be included to avoid the 2nd tax apron.

- A backup C needs to come our way since you can’t play Giannis full time C.

So….

Bucks in Ingram, Kessler
Bucks out Pat, Bobby, Brook, 2031 FRP

Pels in Bobby, Brook
Pels out Ingram

Utah in Pat, MIL 2031 FRP
Utah out Kessler

Dame/Wright/Johnson
Green/AJJ
Midds/MarJon
Ingram/Prince/Livingston
Giannis/Kessler/Smith

In terms of money that leaves 3,943 mil under the 2nd apron to fill the final spots.

If thats all Ingram was worth he would have been traded a long time ago. Brook has almost no trade value. Bobby is worth a first and something small. Ingram should fetch 2.5 to 3 firsts.

[raferfenix]

If Ingram were a good defender sure maybe take a flier.

You could even refuse to grant an extension and say prove it this year. If all it costs is an expiring Lopez we could just risk him walking.

However we’d still have the same hole at the 2 and defensive void across the perimeter. And Middleton would be the fourth option. And Bobby’s fit would be lol.

[bdpecore]

Wizards are asking for 2 firsts for Kuzma on a 3 year $23.5M per deal.

Who’s offering 2 firsts for Ingram demanding $50M per over 4 years?

Maybe it’s bad enough where a team trades for him as a distressed asset without an extension telling him to prove it.

No I don’t want that to be the Bucks. We need more defense not less. But BroLo might be the best the Pelicans can hope for in a multi-team deal.

I think the Pelicans got pretty good draft pick offers for Ingram, but NOP only wanted players. Ingram has been an All Star, he's significantly better than Kuzma.

It is a lot of money though. He's not for everyone, but I still think we can flip him.

My main issue with trading for Ingram is the Bucks will be a habitual 2nd apron team the moment Ingram's extension kicks in next year as they will be paying 4 players over $192MM. Not sure you can build enough depth around them to be a serious contender. Especially when they need to load manage their top 3 players.

[SirChurros]

Anyone thinking Dame and Giannis is enough offense to win a title is kidding themselves.

[ShootingtheJ]

Bucks won because Giannis/KM 2 man game

What the **** do you think Dame and Giannis are going to run?

It's a disgusting weapon that you refuse to acknowledge

I've said Middleton is great! I literally just said he's a borderline 1st option and an elite second option. I'm not hating on Middleton. I'm being realistic about where the Bucks' strengths are and where they're weak. There's no reason to keep Middleton around if he can help you acquire pieces that fit better around Dame and Giannis.

You can't just spam Dame/Giannis actions, as nice and effective as it sounds. Khris is a proven self-creator and closer, which holds immense value in a playoff setting. As good as Giannis is, and he is a closer in a different way, having two other lethal clutch shot makers is what makes this thing go the distance. This is coming from a longtime Khritic.

Agree. Khris has always been outstanding in the playoffs, but the Bucks offense was never good enough. We needed a 3rd reliable scorer, which Jrue wasnt. We finally get 3 scorers, and someone wants to get rid of one of them? Illogical.

[ShootingtheJ]

Wizards are asking for 2 firsts for Kuzma on a 3 year $23.5M per deal.

Who’s offering 2 firsts for Ingram demanding $50M per over 4 years?

Maybe it’s bad enough where a team trades for him as a distressed asset without an extension telling him to prove it.

No I don’t want that to be the Bucks. We need more defense not less. But BroLo might be the best the Pelicans can hope for in a multi-team deal.

I think the Pelicans got pretty good draft pick offers for Ingram, but NOP only wanted players. Ingram has been an All Star, he's significantly better than Kuzma.

It is a lot of money though. He's not for everyone, but I still think we can flip him.

My main issue with trading for Ingram is the Bucks will be a habitual 2nd apron team the moment Ingram's extension kicks in next year as they will be paying 4 players over $192MM. Not sure you can build enough depth around them to be a serious contender. Especially when they need to load manage their top 3 players.

Likely, and a big part of why I'd like to flip Ingram. I think we get the best value for Brook from the Pelicans, and I think Horst will be more creative with trade offers for Ingram than the narrow minded Pelicans.

[soxperry]

Is there a way to send Brook to Phoenix and get Grayson back? Seems almost too easy, solves our biggest issue.

[bdpecore]

Yeah this fallacy that you can have too many scorers in the playoffs is actually crazy. The cool part about Khris is he is a 3rd option but can completely takeover a playoff game when Dame/Giannis don't have it. Winning basketball games isn't as simple as slotting in amazing scorers to score only 14-15 a night, we constantly see him getting hot and scoring near 30 in the playoffs while distrubuting better than anyone of the team. It's beyond valuable.

Stop trying to pigeonhole Khris into only scoring 14 a game in the playoffs like he isn't an absolute leader on the team and isn't capable of carrying playoff games. WE KNOW HE IS. To build a team you have to know what you have

Yes. They have two of the greatest scorers in NBA history. What they don't have is a bunch of defense and athleticism. Khris is expendable.

You keep repeating this but it's more of an idea than reality, more options open things up for your superstars. Not to be mean but it's kind of a flawed understanding of playoff basketball. Also you never have addressed the KM/GA chemistry which guarantees you great offensive possessions, yes it matters greatly in trade talks. If you trade Khris you lose that for nothing because the other franchise will never consider that

To elaborate on Miltown's point, well coached teams are capable of creating defensive schemes to keep the ball out of a star player's hands. This now leaves Milwaukee with one player to carry the team offensively. As we all know, Dame is very capable of doing so but is also prone to having off nights especially in a series where he's constantly being pestered by good defenders like Jrue and Derrick White. This will wear any player down over the course of a 7 game series. Having someone like Khris who can step up in these instances is huge and can propel them to a series win. This is what makes Boston so dangerous. They have 5 starters who are all capable of scoring 20+ on any given night but are also willing to take a back seat to Tatum and Brown when both are cooking.

[AussieBuck]

Is there a way to send Brook to Phoenix and get Grayson back? Seems almost too easy, solves our biggest issue.

How does Grayson solve not having backcourt defense?

[ShootingtheJ]

If Ingram were a good defender sure maybe take a flier.

You could even refuse to grant an extension and say prove it this year. If all it costs is an expiring Lopez we could just risk him walking.

However we’d still have the same hole at the 2 and defensive void across the perimeter. And Middleton would be the fourth option. And Bobby’s fit would be lol.

Bobby would need to be part of the trade, and Wright would still be the PoA defender. Either way, I'd acquire Ingram to save money and to flip him.

[ShootingtheJ]

Some thoughts about an Ingram trade..

- I’m not using Midds under any circumstances since it would be a downgrade for the next season and our window is now.

- Pels seemed to like the idea splitting Ingram into Capela and Okongwu. I have Brook and Bobby an even better package.

- Pat needs to be included to avoid the 2nd tax apron.

- A backup C needs to come our way since you can’t play Giannis full time C.

So….

Bucks in Ingram, Kessler
Bucks out Pat, Bobby, Brook, 2031 FRP

Pels in Bobby, Brook
Pels out Ingram

Utah in Pat, MIL 2031 FRP
Utah out Kessler

Dame/Wright/Johnson
Green/AJJ
Midds/MarJon
Ingram/Prince/Livingston
Giannis/Kessler/Smith

In terms of money that leaves 3,943 mil under the 2nd apron to fill the final spots.

If thats all Ingram was worth he would have been traded a long time ago. Brook has almost no trade value. Bobby is worth a first and something small. Ingram should fetch 2.5 to 3 firsts.

The Pelicans want Brook, but don't have a salary slot to acquire him until they deal Ingram. I agree that Bobby needs to go to a 3rd team here , to acquire a shooter for the Pelicans.

I'd rather not acquire Kessler, as he's the typical drop defense shot blocker that is an asset in the regular season but liability in the playoffs, and the playoffs are everything.

[raferfenix]

Clippers: Ingram
Pelicans: Lopez, PJ Tucker, Clippers draft assets
Bucks: Norm Powell, cap relief to get under apron

Alternatively we could take PJ and send Connaughton to New Orleans. Or we snag PJ + Terrance Mann vs Powell.

[soxperry]

Is there a way to send Brook to Phoenix and get Grayson back? Seems almost too easy, solves our biggest issue.

How does Grayson solve not having backcourt defense?

Grayson isnt an elite defender but hes definitely not a bad defender and he provides elite shooting.

If all you care about is defense, then we already have your guy in Wright. But hes not nearly the shooter that Grayson is and he hasnt started more than 15 games since 2021.

[ShootingtheJ]

Clippers: Ingram
Pelicans: Lopez, PJ Tucker, Clippers draft assets
Bucks: Norm Powell, cap relief to get under apron

Alternatively we could take PJ and send Connaughton to New Orleans. Or we snag PJ + Terrance Mann vs Powell.

The reason Ingram hasn't been dealt is the Pelicans won't except draft assets.

[raferfenix]

Bobby would need to be part of the trade, and Wright would still be the PoA defender. Either way, I'd acquire Ingram to save money and to flip him.

I’m not sure why flipping Ingram would result in more value later than in a multi-team trade now.

If he’s a distressed asset I’d be more interested in making him prove it this season too. Compel Ingram to play defense / rebound / shoot 3’s and don’t take so many games off.

But if we are trading real assets or are required to give an extension, wouldn’t Jerami Grant be preferable? Paid $20M less per season, plays defense, both are similarly injury prone, but he’s boys with Dame.

[bdpecore]

I think the Pelicans got pretty good draft pick offers for Ingram, but NOP only wanted players. Ingram has been an All Star, he's significantly better than Kuzma.

It is a lot of money though. He's not for everyone, but I still think we can flip him.

My main issue with trading for Ingram is the Bucks will be a habitual 2nd apron team the moment Ingram's extension kicks in next year as they will be paying 4 players over $192MM. Not sure you can build enough depth around them to be a serious contender. Especially when they need to load manage their top 3 players.

Likely, and a big part of why I'd like to flip Ingram. I think we get the best value for Brook from the Pelicans, and I think Horst will be more creative with trade offers for Ingram than the narrow minded Pelicans.

there's a reason why teams don't trade for star level players and immediately flip them. Its because the offer the made to acquire said player was the best one on the table. When you turnaround and trade said player for the 2nd best offer you lose value. Picks versus players is nothing more than a crapshoot as you can value a potential top 5 pick in next year's draft higher than Brook Lopez and draft say Alex Sarr who turns out to be Mo Bamba 2.0. Fans seem to value draft picks more then GMs as they see them for their potential not realistic value.

For reference, here's the list of players selected 5th from 2007-2022 (15 years). I didn't include the last two drafts because it typically takes players a couple years to establish themselves to the league.

Jeff Green, Kevin Love, DeMarcus Cousins, Jonas Valanciunas, Thomas Robinson, Alex Len, Dante Exum, Mario Hezonja, Kris Dunn, De'Aaron Fox, Trae Young, Darius Garland, Isaac Okoro, Jalen Suggs, Jaden Ivey.

There are maybe 5 players I would prefer over Brandon Ingram. This is why GMs don't value draft picks as much as fans do. The miss rate is significantly higher than the hit rate on all draft picks.

[soxperry]

You dont need to flip Ingram. Hes a Khris replacement. You then trade Khris to someone else for whatever combination of draft assets and win now needs.

Now if AJ Johnson hits, you are set up nicely until Giannis is done. If he doesn't, youve got a couple years to figure out your third star next to Giannis and Ingram.

People saying Ingram is a step down from Khris right now. Is he really? I dont know if I agree with that.

[JayMKE]

If the Bucks can acquire Ingram as a depressed asset then I would be inclined to keep him & try to figure out how to make it work rather than flip him for spare change, not going to find a more analogous player to Khris for the core going forward. Jerami Grant is 30 and not as good, I'd definitely would prefer Ingram over him.