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Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics

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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1881 » by coolhandluke121 » Sat Mar 6, 2021 5:30 pm

LuessiT wrote:There are also other aspects introduced with the salary cap. When every team has the same money available it matters how you maximize the talent with said money. Star players represent huge value contracts and the bigger the star the better. When Westbrook makes as much as Harden, when Middleton makes as much as AD. When you can get an all NBA player like Doncic on a rookie contracts - there is a huge imbalance between money and talent. These are the contracts you need to jump 29 other teams on a level playing field. Now I'm not saying you can't have non-rookie non-max value contracts but it's very hard to get these repetitively. So the easiest way is getting stars.


Yeah, I've always believed that too. Having superstars just makes it so much easier to build a team for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the artificial cap on how much you have to pay them. That still doesn't mean they should get all the credit though. They get more than enough credit from all sides, and probably a little too much from a lot of casual fans, for how much they actually add to their team's net rating and win total for their on-court contributions in a vacuum. A team led by Giannis and Khris, for example, could probably win anywhere from 40 to 75 games with the worst or best supporting cast of any NBA team we've seen this century. So clearly guys like Jrue and DDV (and last year's Brook, Bledsoe, and Hill) deserve credit for their contributions even though they're not the primary factor in making the team a contender.

It's also harder to build a team without a superstar because you have to get a bunch of good players AND make sure they all complement each other perfectly, whereas you can always find role players to surround Shaq and Kobe. But again, that's the indirect benefit of team-building, not the direct effect of ratings and wins impact via production, plus you have to remember that Fisher, Fox, and Horry were good players in their own right who sacrificed numbers to win titles.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1882 » by coolhandluke121 » Sat Mar 6, 2021 5:32 pm

smauss wrote:interesting discussion. In essence we all know that Superstars are required to win at this level. Yet, basketball will always be a team sport. These advanced analytics attempt to put number to that symbiotic relationship. DDV will never be a superstar, but he is a guy that every team wants/needs, and these advanced analytics show that. The only aspect of his game that is not outstanding is shooting/offense. I don't have the stats but my guess is that our winning percentage is outrageous when DDV's shooting/offense is clicking, however, the nights his offense isn't clicking, doesnt mean he's not contributing in a host of different ways. Now, the GM needs to be able to assemble a roster where the team, both Superstars and others compliment each other and fill in deficits that each play has. DDV's game would do that for any team imho.



Perfect summary.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1883 » by LuessiT » Sat Mar 6, 2021 6:08 pm

My gripe with evaluating players like Donte is that you have to relate the on court value to the money they'll eventually make. Donte right now is seen as a (very) valueable role player because he's on a rookie contract but that will change in 15 month. When he hits free agency you're at gods mercy. If he gets a big offer, you either let an asset walk out the door or you're at risk of matching an unmoveable contract.
Donte is a very good player but if he gets his career high in millions per year we're going to have a bad time.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1884 » by smauss » Sat Mar 6, 2021 6:26 pm

LuessiT wrote:My gripe with evaluating players like Donte is that you have to relate the on court value to the money they'll eventually make. Donte right now is seen as a (very) valueable role player because he's on a rookie contract but that will change in 15 month. When he hits free agency you're at gods mercy. If he gets a big offer, you either let an asset walk out the door or you're at risk of matching an unmoveable contract.
Donte is a very good player but if he gets his career high in millions per year we're going to have a bad time.


This is really where the GM & entire FO earn their money! We have a history of overpaying for mediocracy, and in todays NBA that simply can't happen if one is to be successful. The supporting cast, and the available FA have to be evaluated in an attempt to acquire the supporting cast needed to compliment your top tier players with the dollars you have available. Truly a difficult job indeed!
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1885 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Mar 6, 2021 6:30 pm

WRau1 wrote:if DDV is the 8th man in your rotation then you must have the best 1-7 players on any team in the league.


Someone should do the starting two guard on the last 10-15 champions. Would be curious how they stack up to DDV.
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Post#1886 » by LuessiT » Sat Mar 6, 2021 6:44 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:if DDV is the 8th man in your rotation then you must have the best 1-7 players on any team in the league.


Someone should do the starting two guard on the last 10-15 champions. Would be curious how they stack up to DDV.


Just off the top of my head:

KCP
Danny Green
Klay
Klay
JR Smith
Klay

Other than Klay Donte compares favorably to all off them.
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Post#1887 » by Warriors Analyst » Sat Mar 6, 2021 8:18 pm

Prez wrote:Jrue-DDV-Khris-Giannis have a +25 net rating with anyone besides Brook as the 5th guy. Though the sample is so small I’m not gonna even mention the minutes total lol. Need Horst to find a team dumber than the Bucks to get that strong wing/forward (basically a bigger, actually good version of Torrey Craig) for Brook/DJA and 2nds and stuff to replace Pat’s role as that 5th guy. That plus bringing GOATkite into the mix


I don't think i'd want to do it, but I could see the Warriors deciding Brook is a good mentor to Wiseman and a good guy to have to soak up minutes and ship off Oubre to make it happen.

Oubre and Paschall for Lopez and Craig works.

Again, I don't know if I like it as a Warriors fan, but eh?
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Post#1888 » by Frank Nova » Sat Mar 6, 2021 8:23 pm

Prez wrote:
Frank Nova wrote:
Prez wrote:Jrue-DDV-Khris-Giannis have a +25 net rating with anyone besides Brook as the 5th guy. Though the sample is so small I’m not gonna even mention the minutes total lol. Need Horst to find a team dumber than the Bucks to get that strong wing/forward (basically a bigger, actually good version of Torrey Craig) for Brook/DJA and 2nds and stuff to replace Pat’s role as that 5th guy. That plus bringing GOATkite into the mix


What’s the net rating with Brook? I’m lazy and would rather you tell me than look it up lol. I’m curious what that analytics say because Brook is failing the eye test miserably this year imho. He’s only relevant in roto fantasy leagues this year lol

+7.6 net rating with Brook

Which frankly kinda sucks with the talent in that 1-4


+7.6 doesn’t just kinda suck, it should realistically be unacceptable with the surrounding talent. I’d really hope Horst would be intensely evaluating the weak link in that chain. To me, it’s just simply Brooks cinder block feet. He evolved with the modern NBA but his immobility is now playing him off the floor. I’d rather have someone like Naz Reid at this point or someone that fits that mold; big mobile athlete with some offensive polish even tho he’s limited (to be nice) on D.... not even as a starter either, just to replace some of Brooks minutes. We are clearly a different animal when Giannis plays 5. We need to have someone more mobile than Brook to spell that.
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Post#1889 » by JayMKE » Sat Mar 6, 2021 8:55 pm

Brook is cooked
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Post#1890 » by GoldenAntlers » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:09 pm

JayMKE wrote:Brook is cooked
Cook Lopez. Not quite the same ring as Chef Curry.
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Post#1891 » by emunney » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:09 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:if DDV is the 8th man in your rotation then you must have the best 1-7 players on any team in the league.


Someone should do the starting two guard on the last 10-15 champions. Would be curious how they stack up to DDV.


Well, Danny Green started on the last 2 and is on the current top seed in our conference. They're not that different even though the things they're best at are.
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Post#1892 » by emunney » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:16 pm

Donte is really good at all the things that don't make a player expensive. We have three correctly expensive guys. If he was a good scorer right now would we even be able to keep them all?

I would be happy to trade him and Brook for a better player at PG or C but who is that guy? Maybe Turner?
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Post#1893 » by AussieBuck » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:24 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:if DDV is the 8th man in your rotation then you must have the best 1-7 players on any team in the league.


Someone should do the starting two guard on the last 10-15 champions. Would be curious how they stack up to DDV.

Bradley/KCP and Green were the 3 and D guards starting last year he's better than all three
2019: Green
2018: Warriors superteam
2017 Warriors superteam
2016: JR Smith
2015: Harriosn Barnes was the role player although a SF, teams put their worst guard on him so this basically holds
2014: Green again
2013: Mario Chalmers
2012: Chalmers
2011: DeShawn Stevenson
2010: Derek Fisher
2009: Fisher

So basically what the anti-Donte guys actually mean is that he isn't a starting calibre player on the Curry/Durant/Klay Warriors.
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Post#1894 » by raferfenix » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:43 pm

How expensive do we think Donte would be to extend this offseason?

There’s a difference whether or not we think we can lock him in at a fair / affordable rate.

I’m not even hoping for much of a hometown discount (after all we did try to trade him for Bogdan), rather, a guy like Donte could have his financial prospects decimated by an injury at the wrong time.

Maybe he bets on himself and goes to restricted free agency in a league short on shooting guards to maximize his next contract. But he also could take the bird in hand if we make a serious offer.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics 

Post#1895 » by ShootingtheJ » Sat Mar 6, 2021 10:20 pm

Bucks get: Tomas Satoransky, Luke Kornet
Hornets get: Brook Lopez, Bryn Forbes
Bulls get: Devonte Graham, Cody Zeller

Hornets get a floor spacing center, Bulls get the illusion of a young PG of their future (Graham sucks). Bucks get a quality combo guard and a commitment to a switching defense, while saving a very important $2.7 million.

Why is it important? Trade 2

Bucks get: Nemaj Bjelica
Kings get: DJW, 2nd round pick

Trade one allows trade 2 to fit under the hard cap.

Bonus trade

Bucks get: Frank Ntilikina
Knicks get: DJA

Bucks fully commit to a switchable defense. Knicks had offseason interest in DJA.

Portis/Giannis/Kornet/Diakite
Giannis/Bjelica/Thanasis
Middleton/Connaughton/Nwora
Jrue/Satoransky/Ntilikina/Powell
DDV/Satoransky/Ntilikina/Merrill

Finishing group can be match up specific with the 5th player, picking from Satoransky, Connaughton, or Bjelica.
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Post#1896 » by drew881 » Sun Mar 7, 2021 12:12 am

LuessiT wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:if DDV is the 8th man in your rotation then you must have the best 1-7 players on any team in the league.


Someone should do the starting two guard on the last 10-15 champions. Would be curious how they stack up to DDV.


Just off the top of my head:

KCP
Danny Green
Klay
Klay
JR Smith
Klay

Other than Klay Donte compares favorably to all off them.


We should do this with coaches
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Post#1897 » by mkegb » Sun Mar 7, 2021 12:58 am

I think it’s pretty simple, has Donte progressed or regressed this year?

I say move him while he still has some value to upgrade a position.
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Post#1898 » by giannis and 1 » Sun Mar 7, 2021 2:17 am

HKPackFan wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:Dude, we get it. You **** hate Jabari, he tore his ACL twice before he turned 22, and he sucks now. Let it go.


I didn't even hate him, just pointed out that he wasn't good. The only emotional bias was coming from all his fanboys. And there are important lessons to be learned from that, namely that there's so much more to the game than goddamn PPGZ, so it's still relevant because so many people still can't get that through their heads when you hear them talk about DDV. DDV is the antithesis of Jabari and thinking Jabari was going to be good reveals that same myopic ideas about basketball as thinking DDV is not.




I don't think it needs to be the same people.


I was one of the last on Jabari Island, I thought Jabari would be an incredible elite scorer and would be eventually figure the rest of his game out, or be an average defender at least. It wasn't until I heard his fateful comments that I started to take off my Jabari glasses.


DDV I've been in love with since day one. I love his game, I love his D, I love all the scrappy boards, the steals, the cuts for layups. I love his deamener. He's my second favorite buck. I love his ability to read passing lanes, I love how he can be a dog on D and just harass people. He's not afraid of anyone or anything. His charge the other night was incredible. That's a DDV type of play he's going to keep making.

His shot is the only thing that needs to be a little more consistent, but otherwise he's got so much to love in his game.

Doesn't mean I fell for a lotto pick thinking his going to be gunning for number one scorer in the league for the next decade, means I only care about PPG. Many people thought wrongly Jabari was going to some elite other worldly scorer. But doesn't mean anyone who thought that think PPG is all that matters in basketball.


A person can be wrong about Jabari and still completely appreciate and love Donte's game.

Nitpicking but DDV also needs to get better at finishing at the rim as well as making less erratic passes.
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Post#1899 » by giannis and 1 » Sun Mar 7, 2021 3:12 am

crowhead76 wrote:Bucks out - DJW and DJA + 2 SRPs
Bucks in - Wright

Pistons out - Svi and Wright
Pistons in - Bamba, DJW, Ennis

Magic out - Bamba and Ennis
Magic in - Svi and DJA + 2SRPs
______________

Bucks in - Moore + SRP
Suns in - Forbes
_______________

Bucks in - Dozier
Nuggets in - Craig + SRP
_______________

Sign Dedmon/Cousins and sign Ariza if bought out.

Holiday - Wright - (2)Powell
DDV - Pat - Moore - Merrill
Middleton - Ariza - Dozier - Nwora
Giannis - Portis - Thanasis
Lopez - Dedmon/Cousins - (2)Diakite

Can we somehow get both Bamba and Wright, using only some combo of Pat/DJA/DJW/Craig/2nds
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Post#1900 » by SupremeHustle » Sun Mar 7, 2021 3:31 am

I fine with Donte as a starter if the Bucks get Karl Anthony Towns to replace Brook.

Donte's problem is he needs to do more than he seems capable of doing right now.
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