Giannis - 2X MVP - FMVP - DPOY - Offseason discussion

[Jez2983]

Well, no. Jokic absolutely has holes to his offensive game. He doesn't apply consistent rim pressure due to athletic and speed/quickness limitations, doesn't generate a ton of foul pressure or FT opportunities without flopping/grifting, and he's a low-volume, streaky 3PT shooter (he ain't Dirk). He's probably one of the 5 or 6 best passers and about as automatic of a mid-range and around the basket big-man as I've ever seen, but saying he's essentially this perfect basketball player with some fluctuating defensive deficiencies is big hyperbole and a bridge too far for my liking.

He's 3rd in the league when it comes to FTA at the 5 for starters. With that being said, I guess I don't consider things that come as a direct result of a physical limitation as a "hole" to someone's game, but that's just me. From a skillset standpoint, the guy is just the complete package at the 5. Inside, outside, "streaky" but hits at 39%, GOAT level passing, the movement, the awareness, it's all there.

And I didn't say he was a "perfect basketball" player either, immediately following it with defensive deficiencies given I was speaking to his offensive repertoire is one hell of a straw man.

I mean, ok? That's not really how that works though. I would view anything that mitigates your effectiveness in certain situations (transition offense, ability to collapse a defense, off-ball pick & roll effectiveness, lob threat gravity) as a deficiency to one's offensive game, but I don't really feel the need to get into a "what is talent/skill" debate so we'll just agree to disagree.

You've made a couple of really nice posts here. I'd also add that if we were specifically comparing him to Giannis, in terms of rim pressure he doesn't have the same power or body control. And maybe from a motivational perspective, he doesn't seem to try and dominate games like Giannis. Which can be both a blessing and a curse both ways.

This is very much a 'Megan Fox has ugly thumbs' debate though. The beauty of these two guys is their uniqueness and imperfections.

[skones]

Again you said Giannis is overrated on defense. You are a bucks fan and you take in account how Giannis defends against the Detroit Pistons or the Pacers and the Spurs in a 82 game season to rate him or how he defended without Lopez or any other big man in the roster a few months after winning the championship. Some things are obvious and are proven long ago.

He can switch 1-5.
He can play small ball center with a tough PF besides him at championship level.
He can play PF with the best help defense in the league at the best level possible.
He has by far the best defensive FG% in the league.
He is the No1 defender on both defending the big man and the ball handler in the PNR.
He is a top 5 rim protector.
He collapses offenses just by his mere presense on the court because teams are trying to avoid attacking him or avoid passing the ball through his arms.

Like, these things are all good in theory, but when some are put into practice they are being overstated. He can't switch onto 2-3s on the perimeter without routinely overcommitting, but we're going to say he can switch onto the 1? Like it's routinely trotted out as Giannis can do this, but it's FAR from anything I'd call a strength. Hence, overrated. We beat one team with Giannis as a small ball center. One team. If anything, the large body of work where we go small and play Giannis at the 5? It's underwhelming. He doesn't have the awareness or IQ to actually be an anchor, and it's obvious.

Aware of the rest and not something I'm arguing against.

[HKPackFan]

One thing that almost works against giannis is the amount of minutes he plays with the second unit that's bricking threes on his open kick outs and not doing much for him on offense.

I can't recall how many times minutes have gone by I'm grinding my teeth thinking.. Man can we please get khris or jrue or brook back in to help giannis out?!


I don't think jokic has that issue. I'm not sure how that can be accounting for.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

One thing that almost works against giannis is the amount of minutes he plays with the second unit that's bricking threes on his open kick outs and not doing much for him on offense.

I can't recall how many times minutes have gone by I'm grinding my teeth thinking.. Man can we please get khris or jrue or brook back in to help giannis out?!


I don't think jokic has that issue. I'm not sure how that can be accounting for.

The thing is, that these guys have high percentages without Giannis and doesn't translate to higher percentage when Giannis gets them wide-open looks. Is it a weird psychological thing where they are too open or is Giannis getting them the ball in a way that takes them out of rhythm (Not accurate on passes, spin is off, too hard, etc)?

[FrieAaron]

Is it a weird psychological thing where they are too open or is Giannis getting them the ball in a way that takes them out of rhythm (Not accurate on passes, spin is off, too hard, etc)?

Think it's this one to be completely honest. Giannis is a very unselfish passer but he often makes teammates have to extend a bit to catch.

Edit: Anyone know if this is something that's tracked anywhere? Passing accuracy?

[GoldenAntlers]

Giannis maybe missed a few more games than Jokic, but the majority of Bucks wins in the past few years have been blowouts and he hasn't needed to be a closer because he gets the team so far ahead.

[tydett]

The biggest difference between Giannis and Jokic for me is that for Giannis, you can't afford to play him straight up 1v1. He will destroy your **** team. For Jokic, you can't afford to NOT play him straight up 1v1. He'll pick apart your **** team. Two different versions of dominance.

[CharityStripe34]

Again you said Giannis is overrated on defense. You are a bucks fan and you take in account how Giannis defends against the Detroit Pistons or the Pacers and the Spurs in a 82 game season to rate him or how he defended without Lopez or any other big man in the roster a few months after winning the championship. Some things are obvious and are proven long ago.

He can switch 1-5.
He can play small ball center with a tough PF besides him at championship level.
He can play PF with the best help defense in the league at the best level possible.
He has by far the best defensive FG% in the league.
He is the No1 defender on both defending the big man and the ball handler in the PNR.
He is a top 5 rim protector.
He collapses offenses just by his mere presense on the court because teams are trying to avoid attacking him or avoid passing the ball through his arms.

Like, these things are all good in theory, but when some are put into practice they are being overstated. He can't switch onto 2-3s on the perimeter without routinely overcommitting, but we're going to say he can switch onto the 1? Like it's routinely trotted out as Giannis can do this, but it's FAR from anything I'd call a strength. Hence, overrated. We beat one team with Giannis as a small ball center. One team. If anything, the large body of work where we go small and play Giannis at the 5? It's underwhelming. He doesn't have the awareness or IQ to actually be an anchor, and it's obvious.

Aware of the rest and not something I'm arguing against.

He does have difficulties guarding small/quick guards on the perimeter, but that's to be expected as despite his freakish athleticism it's a lot harder for a 7' dude to swivel their hips and match footspeed. He acquits himself very well, though, and generally provides a good contest, but there are so many perfectly solid guards around the league they're bound to hit shots on him (or layups). For every time someone has scored on him, there are highlights where he forces smaller wings/guards to pass or put up a prayer. That's all you can ask for a big out on the wings. A locked-in playoff Gianni, though, from what I've seen can be otherworldly on defense.

I don't think he has unawareness on defense. He has great instincts but tends to get a bit too aggressive sometimes and his technique can be impetuous. But to be sure he is coasting at around 75% on defense often times against inferior teams (and gets burned from time to time). This could be something he and the coaches have talked about during training camp to preserve him for the playoffs, Gianni trying to learn how to pace himself, or both.

[Neuromancer56]

I would not be entirely upset if Embiid wins the MVP for that performance in the win over the Celtics. Here's hoping he punishes them in the playoffs as well.

[skones]

I would not be entirely upset if Embiid wins the MVP for that performance in the win over the Celtics. Here's hoping he punishes them in the playoffs as well.

Precisely the reason it was crucial for us to get the 1 seed. Let those two teams beat the **** out of eachother while we're sitting around waiting for them to finish. The mental exhaustion from our Brooklyn series a couple of years back certainly contributed to our sluggish start against Atlanta.

[WRau1]

I listen to pretty much nothing but sports talk radio all day, there seems to be a lot of people that are in favor of Giannis winning MVP. I don't think it will happen but there definitely seems like a late push for him going on now.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Giannis will end the year ranked all time:
Points - 116
Rebounds - 133
Assists - 185
Steals - NA - 36 short of #250
Blocks - 123

If he retired today, I think he is Consensus Top 30 (probably Top 25). Only missing more 1 ring or longevity stats to be consensus Top 20. Assuming no major injuries, he should be easily pass guys like Dirk, KG, etc once he moves up the stats and accolades lists.

He's obviously young, but i don't think he or the team* ages well so he really needs a ring this year for him to throw his hat in Top 15 category. (Especially if it blocks KL, Curry, KD, Jokic, Embiid, Harden, etc from getting a ring) He will need 1-2 more rings to get there.

*I refuse to think of him ring chasing on another squad for now

[chonestown]

I have long slagged Michael Pina's work for The Ringer, but his piece on his choice of Jokic as MVP is well-considered and persuasive. It's a regular season award, which he makes pains to point out, and the Jokic numbers are unreal. Does he/Denver have another gear? Who knows, doesn't factor into consideration here. And he's right about that.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/4/7/23673254/nikola-jokic-joel-embiid-nba-mvp



The real MVP is the friends we made along the way.imo

[Gianstoppable]

Giannis maybe missed a few more games than Jokic, but the majority of Bucks wins in the past few years have been blowouts and he hasn't needed to be a closer because he gets the team so far ahead.

To be fair the Bucks have a winning record when Giannis sits and Nuggets and 76ers have been bad with their main guy out.

[skbucks1985]

Giannis maybe missed a few more games than Jokic, but the majority of Bucks wins in the past few years have been blowouts and he hasn't needed to be a closer because he gets the team so far ahead.

To be fair the Bucks have a winning record when Giannis sits and Nuggets and 76ers have been bad with their main guy out.

The Bucks are 11-7 when Giannis doesn't play and the Sixers are 10-5 when Embiid doesn't play, that does apply to the Nuggets as they're 4-8 when Jokic doesn't play.

[skbucks1985]

I'm pretty certain Embiid will win the MVP. Him carrying them to the win over Boston probably clinched it for him even if it was sandwiched between a game where he was not very good against Milwaukee and a game where the Heat ran them off the court.

Here's my thought and question. A lot of the articles I've read talking about the race have either outright said or basically said that the difference in team performance between the top 3 is negligible. If we assume Philly, Milwaukee and Denver all have the same result today then Philly and Denver will finish a game apart and the Bucks will be 5 and 6 games ahead of them. My question is where's the demarcation line when overall team performance is no longer negligible? Is it 10 games? 15 games?

[ReasonablySober]

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[skbucks1985]

In 2017 I was advocating for Westbrook to win the MVP. That's an opinion that has not aged particularly well and not even necessarily because of his career since then. But more because we've entered a period where triple-doubles are much more ubiquitous. But I'm 37 and was 31 at the time and grew up with one of the bromides of basketball conversation being that Oscar Robertson averaging a triple double for a season was something that was never going to be replicated. It was a legitimate conversation of what was more likely, someone replicating Oscar's triple double season or someone replicating Wilt's 100 point game.

But in so many ways that MVP has created a monster because if Embiid wins the MVP I don't think it should be understated just how much the Westbrook MVP has shifted the paradigm. If he wins that'll mean that 4 of the last 7 MVP's have been on teams that didn't finish in the top 2 of their conference. The last time it happened before Westbrook was Jordan winning his first in 1988. And it was far from an even distribution between the 1 and the two as all but 4 times it went to someone who team had the 1 seed. If this year's MVP race had occurred in a pre-Westbrook MVP world or Westbrook had never won, the fact that Embiid's primary competitors are on teams with the 1 seed would've carried a TON of weight and I think he probably finishes a distant 3rd.

[CharityStripe34]

In 2017 I was advocating for Westbrook to win the MVP. That's an opinion that has not aged particularly well and not even necessarily because of his career since then. But more because we've entered a period where triple-doubles are much more ubiquitous. But I'm 37 and was 31 at the time and grew up with one of the bromides of basketball conversation being that Oscar Robertson averaging a triple double for a season was something that was never going to be replicated. It was a legitimate conversation of what was more likely, someone replicating Oscar's triple double season or someone replicating Wilt's 100 point game.

But in so many ways that MVP has created a monster because if Embiid wins the MVP I don't think it should be understated just how much the Westbrook MVP has shifted the paradigm. If he wins that'll mean that 4 of the last 7 MVP's have been on teams that didn't finish in the top 2 of their conference. The last time it happened before Westbrook was Jordan winning his first in 1988. And it was far from an even distribution between the 1 and the two as all but 4 times it went to someone who team had the 1 seed. If this year's MVP race had occurred in a pre-Westbrook MVP world or Westbrook had never won, the fact that Embiid's primary competitors are on teams with the 1 seed would've carried a TON of weight and I think he probably finishes a distant 3rd.

Westbrook's MVP in 2017 started the "star player putting up huge numbers on a bad team" getting more consideration. Steph Curry in 2021 finished third over Gianni even though GS was a 7 seed ( ) and ended up missing the playoffs by losing to Ja and the Baby Grizzlies.

"BUT BUT, TS% AND GRAVITY!!!"