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Conspiracy Theory: Alpha dog just switched

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Post#21 » by xTitan » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:19 pm

BuckFan25226 wrote:Assuming Bogut can keep this up and be the main option for this team. Will Kohl trade Redd? I really have no faith in Kohl at this point. I really have no idea what he's trying to accomplish with this team.

I honestly think you can get a lot for Redd and Williams. I'm just scared, as history has proven, Harris will find something, then Kohl will shoot it down.


I think Redd's contract will not allow you to get alot for him...its a terrible deal and if a team were to take him on I am afraid it would be in exchange for other bad contracts, albeit expiring deals.
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Post#22 » by BuckFan25226 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:38 pm

xTitan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think Redd's contract will not allow you to get alot for him...its a terrible deal and if a team were to take him on I am afraid it would be in exchange for other bad contracts, albeit expiring deals.



I'm not saying we're going to get an established all star back. I'm saying we can get definite value back. Even though some hate him and some rip him on this board, the guy has value around the league, even with the contract.
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Re: Conspiracy Theory: Alpha dog just switched 

Post#23 » by Sigra » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:16 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
Redd was so successful with Team USA because they didn't force him to handle the ball in iso's and create for himself. They reduced him to a spot up shooter which increases his effectiveness. If Redd is willing to accept this role it will only benefit us.



Again, considering Redd's defense, if he accept that role than he is WAY overpaid. You don't pay 18 million dolars for spot up shooter without defense.

People blame me to change opinions and although I do change opinions with new informations (which is normal) I also change it acording to direction I think team should go. When I wanted to keep Redd it was because I wanted Redd to score around 26 points per game and then to surround him and Bogut with role players who play defense. But I never ever wanted to keep Redd to be role player. Not with that contract and not with that defense.
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Post#24 » by Sigra » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:26 pm

The Bucks are losing with Bogut as alpha dog but mostly because guards don't play defense so if you don't use them for offense as much as we did before then they hurt you way more than they help you. It is hard to win in that situation especially considering what we have at SF and how our rookie PF is still not ready for NBA.
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Post#25 » by -Jragon- » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:35 pm

xTitan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I think Redd's contract will not allow you to get alot for him...its a terrible deal and if a team were to take him on I am afraid it would be in exchange for other bad contracts, albeit expiring deals.




I still believe in Larry Harris. He will figure this one out. It isn't going to be perfect, but maybe the bad contracts we take back will at least be players that fit together better.
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Post#26 » by bayrdbandit » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:51 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Either way we're still losing and while we did win with Redd out it was against cupcakes. I will say that I have changed my position with Redd and would welcome the right trade.


we're still losing yes, but i'd rather lose with an offense based around a center that can post and kick out if needed than an offense based around a jump shooter.
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Post#27 » by showtimesam » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:53 pm

xTitan wrote:My hope is the Bucks can deal Redd, I am just worried that his contract is so unattractive that no one would be willing to give them anything for him.


Thats why harris needs to call up Riley. He is desperate to add a robin to wade's superman now that shaq is almost done for.

Plus he has more than enough expirings along with a guy like haslem to take redd and simmons off the bucks hands.

The bucks don't need much back for redd, just shed his contract along with bobby's in one deal and get back expirings, maybe one young talent (dorrel wright), and use our lotto pick this offseason plus the midlevel to add a couple smart/solid players to a mo/yi/bogut core.
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Post#28 » by -Jragon- » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:58 pm

We are going to take players from them that are worse then Michael Redd? What is Haslem going to do on the Bucks? Start and put Yi on the bench? I doubt it. Be a bench player behind Yi probably. So we are essentially trading an All-Star for some bench players. I don't like it. I need a package that brings in someone that can help the team like Kidd, Pietrus, Deng, etc.
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Re: Conspiracy Theory: Alpha dog just switched 

Post#29 » by bayrdbandit » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:59 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:But watching the game last night it seemed to me that the alpha dog (Redd) has been replaced by Bogut.


i was thinking the exact same thing. the offense now looks like it is being built to run through the middle. it's what i've always wanted, let's just hope it succeeds. at least it's starting to look like we can compete.

for the first three quarters we were in the jazz game and the phoenix one too, we seemed to lose sight of what was working. smart teams will adjust, but coach k has to counteract those adjustments. we have the weapons, we just need to figure out how to use them.

the most pleasure i got from last night's game (apart from bogut's monster dunk) was seeing bogut post-up and kick it out to redd. to be a team with a solid post option who commands double-teams and to have one of the league's premier shooters waiting for the kick... that's a recipe for greatness. coach needs to figure out ways of freeing up the shooters so they get the open looks, because bogut will find them, that's for sure.
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Post#30 » by EastSideBucksFan » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:40 pm

little_cleo wrote:Much agree, EastsideBucksfan, although I don't see Redd's injury as "subconsciously spiting the team" but more of a reflection of lacking passion for basketball.
In my opinion, the Bucks need a starter - most likely in the front court. Bogut and Yi could use a solid example of aggressive postplay and defensive pressence that they've give us glimpses of but they sometimes "forget" a.k.a. - floating outside in the paint.



Thats very disappointing to hear. I thought with the Team USA experience, the intense workouts, the renewed physique Redd was looking to join the echelon of players he spent the summer training with.


I agree. We need a veteran frontcourt player. Ideally I see a Kurt Thomas type that can help show them the ropes on defense and footwork.

I know we wanted to go young and start a youth movement. But the loss of Toni Kukoc, Ervin Johnson, Joe Smith and even Jamaal Magloire was a huge loss in the veteran leadership department. I think management did not take into consideration the intelligence that was leaving the team when those guys did.

I understand it was not smart to keep all of them around. But I really would've liked to have seen Toni Kukoc stay on the roster, perhaps as a player/coach for at least one more season to help with Bogut's development.
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Post#31 » by paul » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:41 pm

Fort Minor wrote:I see it in a slightly different way...but basically agree with everything.

Bogut's been more vocal on the court this entire year in general. However, it's only lately that his play has reached the level worthy enough for the team to finally begin to respect him as a true leader. Tied in with what you said of Redd beginning to wear out his welcome, I think the other guys are beginning to jump at the opportunity of following Bogut. And why shouldn't they? I'd much rather follow the smart, unselfish, center that can pass well over the tunneled-vision, head down, black hole of a shooting guard.


I entirely agree with this. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I don't think it's any great coincidence that guys like Charlie Bell, CV (until the last 2 games) and Simmons have greatly improved their play while Redd has been out and Bogut has been 'the man'. Now I'm not saying he made them start hitting jumpers obviously, but their play has been far better on all levels, not just shooting. I've also taken great interest in the fact that both Bobby and CB seem to be two guys who really make an effort to get the ball into bogut at every oppurtunity, they are very often the guy's making the entry pass. It's just my impression but i think both those guys would strongly rather bogut being the leader than redd, although I could be totally wrong on that, but like them or not they are both 'team' players, and both, particularly Charlie, have celebrated strongly with and for Bogut when he's made good plays.
It's also no coincidence that we've been seeing some things that we haven't seen in a long time, and that is guys laughing and having a good time together, and also getting really excited and celebrating strong plays, dunks etc. For a while there this team seemed really subdued, but it appears that a bit of the passion has come back imo.
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Post#32 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:42 pm

The tectonic plates of the earth are moving....Europa, Mickey Davis, Jollay and Buckfan all "open" to the possibility of Redd being moved.

Those are the alpha dogs who just "switched" 8)
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Post#33 » by europa » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:42 pm

I think we need to steer clear of turning complete speculation such as Redd doesn't have a passion to play the game into a fact or that he was milking his injury. There's nothing to suggest either is or was the case.
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Re: Conspiracy Theory: Alpha dog just switched 

Post#34 » by EastSideBucksFan » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:43 pm

Sigra wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Again, considering Redd's defense, if he accept that role than he is WAY overpaid. You don't pay 18 million dolars for spot up shooter without defense.

People blame me to change opinions and although I do change opinions with new informations (which is normal) I also change it acording to direction I think team should go. When I wanted to keep Redd it was because I wanted Redd to score around 26 points per game and then to surround him and Bogut with role players who play defense. But I never ever wanted to keep Redd to be role player. Not with that contract and not with that defense.



Perhaps I oversimplified what I was trying to get across.

I'm not trying to turn Redd into a role player. But I do want to reduce his role in our offense. Meaning, out the window go the continual iso's that kill ball movement. I don't say never give him an iso, but sometimes it gets ridiculous and we force feed the ball in tough situations.

When Bogut got doubled down low and then kicked it out to Redd (who stroked a three) thats what I would like to see more of. Defenses began to collapse on Bogut leaving Redd wide open. Redd will drain wide open threes all day.

Redd is still an elite scorer and he will still be able to average 23-25ppg within this new system as he will still get his opportunities, they will just come in different ways.
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Post#35 » by rilamann » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:46 pm

As far as Bogut becomming the alpha dog I noticed it too,or you can at least see Bogut evolving more of an alpha mentality recently.

And I know why too,Bogut must have been reading my posts a couple weeks ago about how he needs to stop defering and start **** people up if they have a problem with it. :wink:


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Post#36 » by El Duderino » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:55 pm

I was skeptical of Redd's "thigh contusion" to be honest with you and now that he's back he's seems extremely hesistant to shoot or handle the ball


I to have sensed that Redd has looked different on the court, that ingrained desire to score hasn't seemed to be there as much. Almost like the wheels in his brain are spinning and he's thinking, is it ok for me to shoot again this time down the court since i shot last time.

Then again, i could be imagining something that's not there.
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Post#37 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:11 pm

El Duderino wrote:Then again, i could be imagining something that's not there.


You're not imagining anything....what were seeing is the deconstruction of the Stotts team from the prior two years....Guys roles are changing....some guys are stepping up their games....some guys getting worse....

It has been a very different looking team out there in 2008.....and I think the players know it as well.
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Post#38 » by BuckFan25226 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:46 am

I have to say, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more of this at home games.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNT7uZf7lew
"didnt you watch the game with the raptors?bucks is also a playoff team ,they have enough ability to find wins from dalas and utach,

blow jazzs bitches and mavericks bitches out !"



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Post#39 » by paul » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:57 am

BuckFan25226 wrote:I have to say, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more of this at home games.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNT7uZf7lew


Damn how was that film clip?
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Post#40 » by BuckFan25226 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:04 am

paul wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Damn how was that film clip?



huh?
"didnt you watch the game with the raptors?bucks is also a playoff team ,they have enough ability to find wins from dalas and utach,

blow jazzs bitches and mavericks bitches out !"



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