PG Indy - AG and BP respond to Haynes report, page 20

[Karsenmitsche]

He's making us look way worse than our talent level and there have been multiple signs he's losing the locker room. But if we don't go on any 3-game losing streaks we're fine?

Maybe I'll just start doing what tydett is doing and stating that we need to fire Griff even after wins. Shooting 60% from 3 against early-round playoff fodder and playing close games against the worst teams in the league shouldn't be changing people's minds on his coaching ability.

It may come down to what the players want. If they come to a point where they want Griffin out, it may not take a lot to take their foot of the gas pedal the last 5 minutes of a game and subsequently lose 3 or 4 straight.

I would hope in that case our players would just go up to Horst and say "fire this dude" instead of tanking games but I see what you're saying.

I'm not the type of person who listens to post-game pressers very often so honest question: have any of the players been particularly effusive about Griffin?

Giannis presser yesterday is a good listen. SAS asks him what the biggest difference between this team and the last few years and Giannis talks about how despite having a lot of talent they need to be more organized on both sides of the ball.

[CharityStripe34]

Lost in all the team lethargy/Griff hubbub though, I think we need to credit and appreciate just how incredible Haliburton has become. We didn't fumble that game. Haliburton won it because he's basically become prime Steve Nash with a better ISO scoring game. Crazy.

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He was really good last night. No doubt. He just knew what to do and he plays for a very good coach who attacked Dame/Beasley/Brook in high screens all night. He looks to have a great feel for the pace of play and killed the Bucks by pushing the ball up the floor at every opportunity.

That Bucks 4th quarter was alarmingly garbage, though. Especially when the game was there for the taking after a good third quarter. Weird considering the one saving grace has been the 4th quarter clutch play thus far.

[M-C-G]

The appeal of AG to me was 1.) aggressive / effective defense 2.) young player development 3.) some of the offensive concepts that made Nurse so appealing without the Ahole attitude that grinds on everyone

Well, so far, this is one of the worst defenses in the league despite having TWO DPOY candidates playing big minutes. Young players, maybe I can make the case that Marjon might be better but I don't think we've seen much from the young guys. Offense, we have no identity and simply taking turns with the ball. Stotts leaving, Portis challenging the team and a general look of 'whatever' and indifference by too many players out there.

The (lack of) rebounding given our size and the complete lack of transition defense are outright embarrassing.

[MiltownHawkeye]

Also, Marjon is trash and should be traded for anything they can get before he loses all value.

I'd take a future 2nd easily.

I'm down for this just because it establishes the AJs (Green less so because we don't need more shooting all that badly) as the developmental guys we try to find minutes for. The AJs at least have clear above-average NBA skills. Marjon is a worse-shooting, more out-of-control Tony Snell and he's 23.

[German Athens]

I like Dre quite a bit, and I want him to get consistent minutes, but I don’t think he’s emphatically answered the question of whether he’s that missing dude. I actually don’t think he is yet.

That’s okay, he’s a rookie second round pick.

The skill we’re missing most right now is probably screen navigation. Jrue, and even Wes when healthy, we’re elite at that. So far, I don’t think Dre has been great there, but his biggest boost has been processing speed.

Gets picked off on screen? Fine, he’ll immediately bust his ass to get in front of the roller and blow that action up.

I want him playing, but it’s certainly not in the top few criticisms I have of Griffin.

[DingleJerry]

As much as we call out Gianni for ball-watching, sometimes rightfully so, Dame is a horrible off-ball player if he's not involved in the primary action. I noticed a couple of times last night when Khris/Freak were running a side pick-and-roll, Dame sort of drifted into their area bringing an extra defender and blowing it up.

Reading those tidbits from that article, I'm not entirely opposed with the basic notion that Griffin wants everyone involved, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the two greatest weapons we have. Funny enough, sometimes it seems like they're really playing random on offense. Whodathunk?

His quote on getting everyone involved or that other can't get involved if they run ballscreens also really doesn't make sense. Start with the high ball screen mid court does not mean only those two guys will get the ball. Almost the whole idea is the D will have to send at least 3 guys at it to stop it. Both guys are willing passers. Once it gets started there will be tons of opportunities to get the ball moving. I recall maybe 3 games ago they ran this basic play, Giannis got the pocket pass near FT/Top of key with two guys on him, quick swing to the corner for a completely wide open 3 someone made, I think Beas. I said out loud at the time, why is this so hard to run. ETA: Dame made a Plumlee into a great player (and got him rich) for a couple years doing this, guy was getting like 5 assists from getting the ball after the ballscreen then swinging it properly

Two of the best ball movement team offenses we've ever seen and we all remember are the Nash Suns and the Parker/Duncan Spurs of the early 2010s. Almost every play started with a ballscreen, which compromise the D, then move/pass/cut as you react to the D.

The O that torched us last night and Carlisle has pumped out top Os forever on start the same way. Which is a sidenote, that Carlisle still a good coach huh. That was the guy to go after if we were gonna push Bud out over the years

[PG Graveyard]

Did this game count as a home game for us?

[drew881]

Forget who said it, but someone defended AG saying he doesn't have the personnel to do his aggressive ball pressure scheme. Let's say the Lillard trade never happened. Do we think a Holiday ball pressure defense/rebounding would be better than the Budenholzer defense/rebounding? I don't think so for a second.

[randy84]

I would love for the media to ask Middleton "What were you trying to do with 2:14 left in the game down 3, by waving off Dame and bringing the ball up?" "What type of play were you trying to run and why did you bring the ball up only to try and pass it back to Dame with his man covering him?"

Look at Mids'reaction after the ball gets stolen. He doesn't even move. He has to see that the pass is getting stolen and he just stands there and doesn't try to chase the guy down.

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[jimmybones]

What happens in Vegas is hardly a reason to fire the coach. Lillard in his presser alluded to the atmosphere in the arena being like USAB or Summer League, and he was right. It was strange and unsettling to have a half-filled arena and a bunch of neutral fans. They should have played through it, but they couldn't force the Pacers into the half-court game in which the Bucks had an overwhelming advantage often enough.

The Pacers are a hot team with a fast break game that is befuddling everybody. For now. The league will catch up, and the cream will rise to the top. Not a time for billboards and blubbering.

Think you’re missing the point. For most of this season, the team doesn’t look like it knows what it’s doing out there. On defense and on offense.

We win because we have TWO of the top SIX scorers in the entire league last year on our team. And one of them is a former 2x MVP and DPOY. A coach like Chauncey Gardner can roll the ball out on the court, and this team will get wins by osmosis with that talent.

We could have John Wooden, Dr. Jack Ramsay, and James Naismith on the sideline and still not go undefeated. Nor could a basketball mastermind prevent Middleton from bouncing the ball off Brook's head when attempting a pass to him, or many of the other awkward things that occurred on the bright blue court.

My point is not that we don't occasionally look lost, unpurposeful and badly spaced. It's that the adjustment period is called an adjustment period because it is characterized by those things.

This team is not perfect, but as you point out it is immensely talented. When the snow that is yet to come starts melting into gray slush on 4th Street, I predict your anxiety level will be much lower.

Appreciate your optimism but all of mine for Griffin has been diminished. It's not just what happened in Vegas, it's been a running theme of constantly doing things your personnel is not equipped to do.

We're kinda ****. Firing him now would be the worst optics ever. We just fired a championship coach and his replacement can't make it to the All Star break? We'd look erratic as heck to potential coaches and the job security aspect of working for this team would limit the number of candidates who would even be interested.

Stotts might be the only realistic option if he saw first hand that Griff is a dolt, he'd understand the decision to move on from him so quickly that someone from outside of the situation might not understand.

[German Athens]

I may be moving goal posts here, but we don’t have an issue of not running the pick n roll.

Dame is 4th in attempts per game out of it on 89th percentile efficiency. Giannis is running a career high 4+ attempts per game on 98th percentile efficiency. Khris will run it more as his minutes ramp up.

I also agree with not doing it every time down. Letting other players run sets, remain involved in the game, is important. With that said, I do want to see the Dame-Giannis pick n roll probably double in frequency. Get into the top 10.

[CharityStripe34]

As much as we call out Gianni for ball-watching, sometimes rightfully so, Dame is a horrible off-ball player if he's not involved in the primary action. I noticed a couple of times last night when Khris/Freak were running a side pick-and-roll, Dame sort of drifted into their area bringing an extra defender and blowing it up.

Reading those tidbits from that article, I'm not entirely opposed with the basic notion that Griffin wants everyone involved, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the two greatest weapons we have. Funny enough, sometimes it seems like they're really playing random on offense. Whodathunk?

His quote on getting everyone involved or that other can't get involved if they run ballscreens also really doesn't make sense. Start with the high ball screen mid court does not mean only those two guys will get the ball. Almost the whole idea is the D will have to send at least 3 guys at it to stop it. Both guys are willing passers. Once it gets started there will be tons of opportunities to get the ball moving. I recall maybe 3 games ago they ran this basic play, Giannis got the pocket pass near FT/Top of key with two guys on him, quick swing to the corner for a completely wide open 3 someone made, I think Beas. I said out loud at the time, why is this so hard to run. ETA: Dame made a Plumlee into a great player (and got him rich) for a couple years doing this, guy was getting like 5 assists from getting the ball after the ballscreen then swinging it properly

Two of the best ball movement team offenses we've ever seen and we all remember are the Nash Suns and the Parker/Duncan Spurs of the early 2010s. Almost every play started with a ballscreen, which compromise the D, then move/pass/cut as you react to the D.

The O that torched us last night and Carlisle has pumped out top Os forever on start the same way. Which is a sidenote, that Carlisle still a good coach huh. That was the guy to go after if we were gonna push Bud out over the years

That's what I was alluding to. No reason that the other three players on the floor can't be involved on secondary or tertiary actions out of a Freak Time pick-and-roll. And the beauty of it is that because Gianni handles the ball really well for a big you could even use Dame as a screener as a wrinkle.

[DingleJerry]

I may be moving goal posts here, but we don’t have an issue of not running the pick n roll.

Dame is 4th in attempts per game out of it on 89th percentile efficiency. Giannis is running a career high 4+ attempts per game on 98th percentile efficiency. Khris will run it more as his minutes ramp up.

I also agree with not doing it every time down. Letting other players run sets, remain involved in the game, is important. With that said, I do want to see the Dame-Giannis pick n roll probably double in frequency. Get into the top 10.

The bolded is what we're talking about. And to run a focus on it the whole game, not just once you're down 10+

[Prez]

It may come down to what the players want. If they come to a point where they want Griffin out, it may not take a lot to take their foot of the gas pedal the last 5 minutes of a game and subsequently lose 3 or 4 straight.

I would hope in that case our players would just go up to Horst and say "fire this dude" instead of tanking games but I see what you're saying.

I'm not the type of person who listens to post-game pressers very often so honest question: have any of the players been particularly effusive about Griffin?

Giannis presser yesterday is a good listen. SAS asks him what the biggest difference between this team and the last few years and Giannis talks about how despite having a lot of talent they need to be more organized on both sides of the ball.

I haven’t seen that presser, but yikes if he actually said that lol.

[Prez]

Haynes coming out with that Griffin tweet means a lot imo. He’s tight with Dame/Giannis and that does not leak unless things are really getting bad and someone wanted it leaked.

[MissKhriddleton]

I may be moving goal posts here, but we don’t have an issue of not running the pick n roll.

Dame is 4th in attempts per game out of it on 89th percentile efficiency. Giannis is running a career high 4+ attempts per game on 98th percentile efficiency. Khris will run it more as his minutes ramp up.

I also agree with not doing it every time down. Letting other players run sets, remain involved in the game, is important. With that said, I do want to see the Dame-Giannis pick n roll probably double in frequency. Get into the top 10.

98th percentile and we don’t want to run it every time because we’ll hurt the other guys feelings because they’re not involved? Let them run their sets when we’re up 150-120 in the fourth.

[Turk Nowitzki]

Haynes coming out with that Griffin tweet means a lot imo. He’s tight with Dame/Giannis and that does not leak unless things are really getting bad and someone wanted it leaked.

I've been trying to give Griff the benefit of the doubt for as long as possible and I still don't think everything getting blamed on him is completely his fault, some things are but not everything.

Having said that, I think even his biggest defenders (are there any left?) would admit he's in a bit over his head here.

[German Athens]

I may be moving goal posts here, but we don’t have an issue of not running the pick n roll.

Dame is 4th in attempts per game out of it on 89th percentile efficiency. Giannis is running a career high 4+ attempts per game on 98th percentile efficiency. Khris will run it more as his minutes ramp up.

I also agree with not doing it every time down. Letting other players run sets, remain involved in the game, is important. With that said, I do want to see the Dame-Giannis pick n roll probably double in frequency. Get into the top 10.

98th percentile and we don’t want to run it every time because we’ll hurt the other guys feelings because they’re not involved? Let them run their sets when we’re up 150-120 in the fourth.

Of note, that’s Giannis with the ball at the top of the arc, being screened for, and driving down the lane 98th percentile. It’s not as the roller.

The past two years Giannis has improved quite a bit as the ball handler in the pick n roll, and now we’re seeing his attempts creep up.

[humanrefutation]

I do sense that there is some actual leakage in the dam holding back the Bucks from canning Griff. Before, the chorus of criticism was likely brushed off at Bucks HQ. But then you've got the Bobby story, Giannis complaining during his presser yesterday that the team isn't organized, the national media clowning Griff, and now I'm starting to think that the Bucks might actually consider pulling the plug.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I would hope in that case our players would just go up to Horst and say "fire this dude" instead of tanking games but I see what you're saying.

I'm not the type of person who listens to post-game pressers very often so honest question: have any of the players been particularly effusive about Griffin?

Giannis presser yesterday is a good listen. SAS asks him what the biggest difference between this team and the last few years and Giannis talks about how despite having a lot of talent they need to be more organized on both sides of the ball.

I haven’t seen that presser, but yikes if he actually said that lol.

Starts at 650 but worth watching the body language of him walking in. The disorganized quote was definitely "yikes" but definitely seems deeper than a shot at AG. He walks it back a bit when SAS follows up and points to not getting back on D isn't the coaches fault.
He does talk about 'wanting it' so if we are reading too much into it, is he talking about Dame?

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