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Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#281 » by Buckrageous » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:26 pm

unklchuk wrote:YWM. I'd say that's the Bucks current strategy. Youth With Mentors. We have a bunch of young men who may have potential to develop. Hammond has brought in vets in each category to mentor them. Ridnour, Butler, Delfino, Pachulia. All seem to be willing to do the mentoring. The vets aren't anything special, but they don't have looong contracts at exorbitant cost.

More than once Hammond has talked about Delfino and others being such good mentors.

Following this strategy makes the Bucks better than getting high draft pick, worse than playoffs. Nowhere really. Front Office not concerned. They want a "competitive" team with developing youth. They don't care if competitive conflicts with developing.

If the youth develop, and the mentors are significant in that, it can give the team the leg up they're looking for. If the youth overall prove no better than so-so, then it's a trainwreck. Few survivors.

I get the rationale that young players need veteran mentors. However, you don't need 5 of them on a 15 man roster. "Exorbitant cost" is relative. Add Neal to the guys you mentioned and that around $23,000,000(this year alone). For me $23,000,000 is exorbitant for veteran leadership. Each of those moves makes total sense to me on their own to bring veteran leadership. All 5? That's overkill that just takes minutes from developing players.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#282 » by LUKE23 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:27 pm

emunney wrote:The Clippers did not have to make a choice between Dudley and Redick. If we had refused to participate, they could have just waited.


This is true, but the only way they were getting Redick was with our help. Even if they unloaded Butler in a separate deal, they still weren't under the cap at all at that point.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#283 » by Buckrageous » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:29 pm

JimmyTheKid wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:
Max Green wrote:Are you F'N kidding me Luke? He wasn't referencing that we wouldn't take on Butler. He clearly states we "never had a shot at Bledsoe". If we wouldn't take on Butler he would have easily stated that.

Please post one reputable writer saying we turned down Bledsoe because we wouldn't take on Butler. All there was, was people speculating right after the trade happened.

I really not lamenting the Bledsoe deal. That said just because the guy that spent 2 years laying out the case of why Lebron James was never going to win championship ad nauseum says "never" doesn't mean it's actually "never".


Who did that?

Adrain Wojnarowski
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#284 » by emunney » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:32 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
emunney wrote:The Clippers did not have to make a choice between Dudley and Redick. If we had refused to participate, they could have just waited.


This is true, but the only way they were getting Redick was with our help. Even if they unloaded Butler in a separate deal, they still weren't under the cap at all at that point.


I'm sure they would have been fine with that vs. trading their one major asset for just UFA J.J. Redick. Again, this wasn't Redick vs. Dudley. It was Redick and Dudley or keep Bledsoe until something better presented.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#285 » by Ron Swanson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:32 pm

Such a Bucks move :lol:

Whatever, a 33 year old Caron Butler doesn't put us in playoff contention anyways, plus he's an expiring contract next year, and an overall great locker room guy to mentor Giannis.

The only thing that irks me a little about the trade is that Middleton won't see a whole lot of minutes (Giannis wasn't going to get significant minutes either way). However, Butler's been a walking injury report his last couple seasons, so there should be plenty of fill-in opportunities for the young guys.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#286 » by Max Green » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:36 pm

Buckrageous wrote:
Max Green wrote:Are you F'N kidding me Luke? He wasn't referencing that we wouldn't take on Butler. He clearly states we "never had a shot at Bledsoe". If we wouldn't take on Butler he would have easily stated that.

Please post one reputable writer saying we turned down Bledsoe because we wouldn't take on Butler. All there was, was people speculating right after the trade happened.

I really not lamenting the Bledsoe deal. That said just because the guy that spent 2 years laying out the case of why Lebron James was never going to win championship ad nauseum says "never" doesn't mean it's actually "never".


There's a big difference from Woj giving his opinion on Lebron and Woj actually reporting on a story. I'm not gonna defend his opinon pieces on Lebron because I disagreed with them vehemently at the time, but when it comes to reporting/breaking news, Woj is among the best of the best.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#287 » by glenn » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Buckrageous wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:I really not lamenting the Bledsoe deal. That said just because the guy that spent 2 years laying out the case of why Lebron James was never going to win championship ad nauseum says "never" doesn't mean it's actually "never".


Who did that?

Adrain Wojnarowski


I read most of his LeBron articles and I think he was pretty dead on. He never said that LeBron wouldn't win a championship. Either way, his option on that one issue doesn't change the fact that he is consistently one the best, most accurate NBA reporters out there.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#288 » by emunney » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Buckrageous wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:I really not lamenting the Bledsoe deal. That said just because the guy that spent 2 years laying out the case of why Lebron James was never going to win championship ad nauseum says "never" doesn't mean it's actually "never".


Who did that?

Adrain Wojnarowski


No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#289 » by Badgerlander » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:38 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
Treebeard wrote:What's the current roster count?


15.

Knight/Ridnour/Wolters
Mayo/Neal/Delfino
Butler/Middleton/Giannis
Ilyasova/Henson/Udoh
Sanders/Pachulia/Raduljica


I'm guessing Wolters and Rad never see the floor this year. Giannis should get lots of minutes in the preseason and then minimal once the season starts especially if Delfino is healthy. My guess on a healthy rotation is

Knight/Ridnour/Neal
Mayo/Neal/Middleton
Butler/Delfino/Middleton
Ersan/Henson/Udoh
Sanders/Zaza/Udoh

Giannis gets minutes in blowouts (either way)
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#290 » by paulpressey25 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:38 pm

ReasonablySober wrote: and it takes away minutes from a guy in Middleton who would have been better.



I can't subscribe to that notion. Take a look at Middleton's stats last year. We are looking at a guy who averaged 8 points game the final month of the year when he got PT during garbage time.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... -middleton

He seems like a nice prospect but expecting him to outproduce Caron Butler for wins doesn't make sense. Butler isn't half the player he was five years ago, but he's a dependable vet who is going to make some plays that will lead to wins we otherwise wouldn't have gotten, assuming he stays healthy.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#291 » by Thunder Muscle » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:41 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Such a Bucks move :lol:

Whatever, a 33 year old Caron Butler doesn't put us in playoff contention anyways, plus he's an expiring contract next year, and an overall great locker room guy to mentor Giannis.

The only thing that irks me a little about the trade is that Middleton won't see a whole lot of minutes (Giannis wasn't going to get significant minutes either way). However, Butler's been a walking injury report his last couple seasons, so there should be plenty of fill-in opportunities for the young guys.


I think Middleton in the end will get his minutes. I don't expect Delfino and Butler to be available in all 82 games. I assume part of this deal is b/c Delfino's health is in question to start. Butler has never played a full season in his career. Between the 2 I think Middleton will get his burn and if he plays well, Drew will keep him in there.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#292 » by Buckrageous » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:43 pm

emunney wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
Who did that?

Adrain Wojnarowski


No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#293 » by paulpressey25 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:43 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
This is true, but the only way they were getting Redick was with our help. Even if they unloaded Butler in a separate deal, they still weren't under the cap at all at that point.


I think our front office passed on Bledsoe for these reasons.

a) At that time they didn't want to blow the cap space on Butler because they had their eyes on using that money for AK47, Teague, Korver, etc.

b) The Clips other choice was OJ Mayo, who the Bucks really wanted for their SG. So if the Bucks call their bluff on Redick, then the Clips likely get Mayo, taking him off the table for us.

c) Herb had no interest in paying out a new contract this fall to an unproven Bledsoe.

Can I prove all that? Not at all. But we have 25-years of track record to show all of the above being highly plausible. I just refuse to believe that there was no way we could have acquired Bledsoe. I think we would have gladly taken him if those other things above weren't "in the way"
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#294 » by Thunder Muscle » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:43 pm

I can't believe nobody is talking about giving up Ish Smith to be honest. Here is a guy that is 25 years old, has quickness, and got some valuable playoff experience last year (Thanks Coach Boylan). Now we're forced to go into the season with an unproven 2nd round pick as our 3rd string while we give away Ish for this 33 year old SF. I just don't get it.

And god dammit, this Kratsov kid had some potential.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#295 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:43 pm

I don't understand what everyone is so upset about. They're going to win-now-while-rebuilding, which is very hard to do in the NBA. I, for one, am quite impressed. :wink:
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#296 » by LUKE23 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:45 pm

What's win now though? I'd be surprised if they were over 40 wins or under 34 wins.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#297 » by glenn » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:49 pm

Buckrageous wrote:
emunney wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:Adrain Wojnarowski


No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.


You didn't say that he took shots at LeBron, you said that he stated that Lebron would never win a championship. His articles were usually making the point that if LeBron didn't make changes he wouldn't win a championship. The funny thing is, now that he has two, many who have always been LeBron backers fail to acknowledge that to get them he had to make the changes and corrections people slammed him for not making for years.

Back on topic, Caron always looked like a vampire to me.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#298 » by emunney » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:49 pm

Buckrageous wrote:
emunney wrote:
Buckrageous wrote:Adrain Wojnarowski


No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.


Not sure to whom or what you think you're responding here, so let's recap.

You: Woj said LeBron will never win a championship, so it doesn't mean anything that he said we never had a shot at Bledsoe.
Me: He took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but he never said LeBron would never win a championship.
You: A fair amount of shots? You probably loved all those shots he took.

Can you see why I might think you're crazy?
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#299 » by KingWing » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:52 pm

LUKE23 wrote:What's win now though? I'd be surprised if they were over 40 wins or under 34 wins.


We're now a Schrodinger team where we're both win now and tanking at the same time.
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Re: Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov 

Post#300 » by pilprin » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:54 pm

I think we passed on the Bledsoe trade because they really thought Teague was ours for the taking. In hindsight, maybe they do the deal....with the other targets being unavailable.

I have no problem with the trade because it is another good lockerroom guy on a short contract. I understand the downside of more wins, but from a purely basketball standpoint, its not a bad move.

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