Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Horst Given Extension

[BigO]

I never suggested trading Giannis for just Flagg. It would include multiple first rounders and a player or two. I'd even throw in Dame for extra value.

The idea you'd rather have Williamson and the New Orleans draft picks than Flagg and let's say the Wizards draft picks doesn't resonate with me. I only proposed this because of Flagg. If he's not part of it, I'm keeping Giannis.

While I wouldn't trade Giannis unless he asked out, I'm totally good with at least talking about trade ideas. Because we know once the Bucks get eliminated in round one or two, ESPN gonna be all over it.

If Giannis asks out, I do like Ron Swanson's concept of a Pelican's trade assuming they'd win the lottery for your guy Flagg. Zion, Flagg and our future pick/swaps back from the Jrue trade would work for me.

But there are complications to reclaiming our draft capital. I'm not sure we can get our 2025 #1 back. I think the Pels dealt it around and Brooklyn holds the rights unless it's 1-4 (which it won't be).

Pelicans still hold a 2026 swap with us which we could get back, but on the last pick owed (2027) the Pels have traded some of those rights to the Hawks already. So that one is likely not reclaimable either.

My proposal would be to get hold of whatever team got the number one pick. Swanson's proposal was getting the Pelican's pick , even if it was the fourth pick. I'm not intetersted in that. I want a foundational piece (no, Williamson ain't foundational unless you're talking about his weight).

[emunney]

You're right to an extent but there's not THAT many unknowns. There are OKCs, Cleveland's and to lesser extent, Houston's that sort of come out of nowhere but there's no Evan Mobley, Jalen Williams or Tari Eason on our roster that's going to elevate our ceiling like that. Hell, we don't even have guys like Aaron Wiggins.

While Giannis is better than anybody on their team and Dame has been good, we have no way of landing those next 2-3 pretty damn good, young players that all of those teams have. And their stars are 27/28 and younger.

Ok, I'm gonna push back on this because outside of Mobley (sure), those guys were all picked in the mid-1st round or in Wiggins case, the 5th to last pick in the 2nd round. Those assets/players are by no means "unattainable".

That's fair but it's a prayer especially considering our current gang of flunkies running things.

I think for a lot of people this is kind of what it's coming down to: do you think these guys have a good offseason in them? I can definitely understand the opinion that they don't. That said, they probably then don't have a good Giannis trade in them either. Maybe a good offseason involves changing those parameters.

[BigO]

Trading Giannis for Flagg would be like taking Laettner #1 overall instead of Shaq.

If I thought Flagg was the equivalent of Laettner, I'd agree with you. And if you think Flagg is the equivalent of Laettner, there is definitely a problem.

[BigO]

Ok, I'm gonna push back on this because outside of Mobley (sure), those guys were all picked in the mid-1st round or in Wiggins case, the 5th to last pick in the 2nd round. Those assets/players are by no means "unattainable".

That's fair but it's a prayer especially considering our current gang of flunkies running things.

I think for a lot of people this is kind of what it's coming down to: do you think these guys have a good offseason in them? I can definitely understand the opinion that they don't. That said, they probably then don't have a good Giannis trade in them either. Maybe a good offseason involves changing those parameters.

I agree that there is probably not a good Giannis trade out there. I gave the only one I could think of. The fact no one here supports that is not surprising, since Flagg is an unknown commodity (unless you really watch his game) and it involves a huge risk.

That said, if you keep Giannis, Dame is the only chip left, unless you want to tinker around the edges and think that matters.

[chonestown]

I think the Bucks have a good offseason in them, I do not think they have a good offseason in them with Horts at the helm.

[emunney]

That's fair but it's a prayer especially considering our current gang of flunkies running things.

I think for a lot of people this is kind of what it's coming down to: do you think these guys have a good offseason in them? I can definitely understand the opinion that they don't. That said, they probably then don't have a good Giannis trade in them either. Maybe a good offseason involves changing those parameters.

I agree that there is probably not a good Giannis trade out there. I gave the only one I could think of. The fact no one here supports that is not surprising, since Flagg is an unknown commodity (unless you really watch his game) and it involves a huge risk.

That said, if you keep Giannis, Dame is the only chip left, unless you want to tinker around the edges and think that matters.

I love Flagg and your proposal is about as good as it could get (even if I'm not big on Bub or Sarr, they still have substantial value and could be easily re-routed). I just don't think there's any way to justify trading Giannis right now.

I do think tinkering around the edges matters, but not sure it'd be expedient enough in this case, since it matters most when the edges are quality developmental pieces. All depends on the specifics. A roster that utilizes all its parts is also a worthwhile aspiration.

[Ron Swanson]

Even Horst knocked it out of the park in 2018 with basically just *checks notes* the right coaching hire and Brook Lopez on a 1-year room exception contract. Turned a 40-42 team by net-rating into a 61-win juggernaut overnight. I legitimately don't understand people who think "it's just not possible man, Giannis era is over".

If you wanna be depressed about something, just realize that Jason Kidd and Joe Prunty squeezed a better offense out of a 23-year old Giannis, Khris, Eric Bledsoe, Tony Snell, and John **** Henson than Doc has managed to get out of Dame and MVP Giannis in 100-games...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2018.html

[BigO]

Even Horst knocked it out of the park in 2018 with basically just *checks notes* the right coaching hire and Brook Lopez on a 1-year room exception contract. Turned a 40-42 team by net-rating into a 61-win juggernaut overnight. I legitimately don't understand people who think "it's just not possible man, Giannis era is over".

If you wanna be depressed about something, just realize that Jason Kidd and Joe Prunty squeezed a better offense out of a 23-year old Giannis, Khris, Eric Bledsoe, Tony Snell, and John **** Henson than Doc has managed to get out of Dame and MVP Giannis in 100-games...

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/2018.html

Your post is a prime example of apples and oranges.

If the Bucks had all their draft picks as trade bait OR if the Bucks weren't in cap hell, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

In 2018, we had draft picks, cap space and a healthy Khris Middleton.

As for your fawning over Bud, he's doing a heck of a job in Phoenix. He took the same team that was 16 games above .500 last year with a different coach, and coached them to 6 games under .500.

He's a one trick pony that teams and players have figured out.

If you want to fire Doc and replace him with Frank Vogel, I'd consider that.

[Ron Swanson]

Your obnoxious Bud hatred aside, we used one 1st round draft pick to turn Delly and Henson into George Hill (ended up being the Kevin Porter pick ironically enough), and that was even after we got out to a 7-0 start that year. The turnaround had nothing to do with having draft assets and everything to do with hitting a home-run on a couple margins moves, if you even bothered to look it up. We already had zero cap space and we didn't exhaust the draft pick/asset chest until the Jrue trade 2-years later.

[German Athens]

I could see Rollins looking like a young Brogdon here for us as early as next season, and I think the road map longer term could be something like Derrick White.

He has a really solid set of skills - POA defense, off-ball defensive disruptor due to his absurd length and solid bounce, natural looking pull-up game, athleticism/length to finish at the rim.

[RogerMurdock]

Are you also getting all your picks and swaps back from New Orleans and Portland?

If I'm Kevin Costner, I am.

[soxperry]

I could see Rollins looking like a young Brogdon here for us as early as next season, and I think the road map longer term could be something like Derrick White.

He has a really solid set of skills - POA defense, off-ball defensive disruptor due to his absurd length and solid bounce, natural looking pull-up game, athleticism/length to finish at the rim.

Yes, Derrick White is the absolute ceiling for him but its extremely unlikely. The players in this league that are very good and contribute to winning are just so rare. even if he had all the physical tools of White which he does not at this time, there is the mental aspect of it. That seems kind of like a "you either have it or you don't" situation. Jrue has it too. Rollins just seems like a guy in that respect.

[emunney]

I could see Rollins looking like a young Brogdon here for us as early as next season, and I think the road map longer term could be something like Derrick White.

He has a really solid set of skills - POA defense, off-ball defensive disruptor due to his absurd length and solid bounce, natural looking pull-up game, athleticism/length to finish at the rim.

Yes, Derrick White is the absolute ceiling for him but its extremely unlikely. The players in this league that are very good and contribute to winning are just so rare. even if he had all the physical tools of White which he does not at this time, there is the mental aspect of it. That seems kind of like a "you either have it or you don't" situation. Jrue has it too. Rollins just seems like a guy in that respect.

Not trying to pick on you but this is a pet peeve of mine. The ceiling of every player is dramatically higher than people tend to assume. Rollins is far advanced compared to White at the same age (White was still at Colorado). So if his absolute ceiling is White, what was White's absolute ceiling and why did he shatter it?

[M-C-G]

If this roster doesn’t work, wonder if they are thinking about KPJ as the PG of the future and move Dame this off-season

[emunney]

One crazy thing about Rollins is that he's got as many blocks this season (13) as he had in his two years at Toledo, in less than a quarter of the minutes.

[M-C-G]

One crazy thing about Rollins is that he's got as many blocks this season (13) as he had in his two years at Toledo, in less than a quarter of the minutes.

A Rollins - KPJ - GTJ - Kuzma - Giannis line up would seem incredibly disruptive defensively with steal, blocks and deflections. Not sure if we have tried it much but that is a tough defense

[German Athens]

I could see Rollins looking like a young Brogdon here for us as early as next season, and I think the road map longer term could be something like Derrick White.

He has a really solid set of skills - POA defense, off-ball defensive disruptor due to his absurd length and solid bounce, natural looking pull-up game, athleticism/length to finish at the rim.

Yes, Derrick White is the absolute ceiling for him but its extremely unlikely. The players in this league that are very good and contribute to winning are just so rare. even if he had all the physical tools of White which he does not at this time, there is the mental aspect of it. That seems kind of like a "you either have it or you don't" situation. Jrue has it too. Rollins just seems like a guy in that respect.

He doesn’t need to become everything that Derrick white is to be a very good player here, and that’s my larger point. He has the semblance of skill/tools in a bunch of different areas to be a really solid, two-way player.

And for the record, he’s still a full year younger than Derrick white was as a rookie, so there’s still pretty considerable development that could happen.

We’ll see what happens, but he’s the most interesting prospect on the team.


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[German Athens]

One crazy thing about Rollins is that he's got as many blocks this season (13) as he had in his two years at Toledo, in less than a quarter of the minutes.

I probably shouldn’t read too much into a small sample, but I want to.

I think that’s a pretty good indicator of a player’s mental makeup - finding other ways to impact the game when they have a smaller role in the pros than they were accustomed to having in college.

Kinda how we were hoping marjon would end up playing more like a young jimmy butler instead of him trying to showcase his self creation. Seems to me that Rollins is willing and able to provide complementary play to a star nucleus which will only aide in his development.


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[Ron Swanson]

"Mental makeup" is pretty much what separates all these dudes and why it's so damn hard to draft NBA talent outside of like, the blue-chip #1 overall guys. Nailing on late round/2nd round picks and undrafted dudes is basically just about taking as many dart throws as you can before you finally hit on one.

But at a certain point, (Wilson, Brown, Nwora, Merrill, Mamu , Livingston, Tyler Smith, AJ Johnson, Andre) what other conclusion can you make other than that you're just a bad talent evaluator? Roll into next season with a better, more strategically knowledgeable coach and I'm right back on the optimist train, but Horst being the guy to oversee the next steps and roster tweaks/restructure would seriously dampen that optimism.

[M-C-G]

I think we need to be prepared we are closer to Doc being promoted to POBO than we are to him being fired. I don’t think they brought him here to coach for a decade.


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