Bucks-Bobcats Postgame Thread 1/6/2007

[Newz]

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this is the same bogut whose effort issues we've been discussing for the last 3 years?

yeah, he plays hard and wants to win, except for when he doesn't



almost alll players do that, don't try to make bogut out to be some infallible god like player.

If you want to give anybody the title of guy who plays his hardest and wants to win it should be Mo Williams or Yi on this team without a doubt.

Bogut has been like just about every other non-Mo/Yi player on this team... There are stretches where he just looks like he could care less and doesn't put forth the effort required to be productive.

I don't understand how he is any more of a competitor than Redd for instance.

[REDDzone]

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this is the same bogut whose effort issues we've been discussing for the last 3 years?

Yep, the same player who has quit on his team several times in the past. I love Bogut but come on this is just ridiculous.

Good post Jerrod.

[LockDownD]

what I thought was huge was that when Bogut got pushed around by E.O. for that and1 at about 3:50 to go, I expected him to go in a shell and hide. But, Bogut Took over and willed the team to this win. keep it up Bogut, this team needs a rock and your the closest thing we got to it.

[jerrod]

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If you want to give anybody the title of guy who plays his hardest and wants to win it should be Mo Williams or Yi on this team without a doubt.

Bogut has been like just about every other non-Mo/Yi player on this team... There are stretches where he just looks like he could care less and doesn't put forth the effort required to be productive.

I don't understand how he is any more of a competitor than Redd for instance.

yeah, except

i don't remember us ever talking about redd's lack of effort off the top of my head. you can say a lot of good things about bogut, but unrelenting effort is not one of them

[xTitan]

I hardly think its tough to put forth effort when you constantly have the ball....the problem is that Mo Williams is simply not of a high basketball IQ nor is Redd, when you have those type of players handling the ball alot, well you simply lose basketball games, as there tenure together has constantly taught us.

[rilamann]

But you say anything positve about Bogut and the bias Bogut haters run with it and make out like your trying to say Bogut is a dominate player.

Why is it you label anyone who doesn't kneel at the alter of Andrew as a Bogut "hater"?

Thats not true maybe I generalized but i'll clear that up.I don't refer to anyone who isnt a Bogut a fan or supporter a hater just the people who arent objective and knock the guy at every oppritunity.And the ones who like to exaggerate when you say something positive about Bogut,for example.

Rilamann:I think if Bogut was used a little more in the offense and used more properly on a consistient bases the Bucks would be a better team and be better off for it.

Bogut Hater(in response to above comment):OMG Rilamann thinks Bogut is the 2000 version of Shaq.

Let me repeat this for the 100th time in caps.

I DO NOT THINK BOGUT IS TIM DUNCAN.

I DO NOT THINK BOGUT IS A #1 OPTION.

I DO NOT THINK THE OFFENSE SHOULD ''REVOLVE'' AROUND BOGUT.

All my agument has been regarding Bogut and all it ever has been is that I think Bogut as a player and the Bucks as a team would be better off if Bogut was used more often and use properly on a cosnsitient bases.

Thats it.

If you read that as me ''kneeling at the alter of Bogut'' maybe you need to turn off your agenda or whatever it is that is making you see.....

''Rilamann thinks Bogut is Tim Duncan''

when im realy just saying.

''Bogut could help the team if he was part of the team''

Bogut could already average 16 ppg if he just didn't shoot free throws like Dan Gadzuric and had a jumper better than Dan. Those two huge shortcomings in his offensive game are holding back his ability to score more than anything else is. As for him averaging 12 boards per game, i'd love to see it one day and i really thought he'd be a great rebounder, but so far at least, he's quite mediocre in that regard even though we don't have a good rebounder at PF. I could see Andrew averaging 10-10.5 boards some year, but 12 strikes me as unlikely unless Bogut starts attacking the glass like the top rebounders do.

Thats fair and objective and I have never denied Bogut has work to do both on his game and on his mindset on the court as far as becoming tougher and more agressive.He has work to do no doubt but he's capable of improving and lets not forget that if Bogut was a 4 year college player this current season would be his rookie year.

We are not talking about a 10 year vetran here,if we where I sure as hell wouldnt be arguing this.

I don't buy it. I've watched the NBA a long time and have seen my share of absolutely fierce competitors who despised losing with a passion and would rather cut a finger off with a pair of garden shears than let their man make them look bad, i don't see that from Bogut or anyone on this team. Nobody on this team is above quitting during a game or not caring if their man pretty much punks them, it's sad to watch as a Bucks fan. It's been awhile since this team had a starter that was a key cog and who was an extremely fierce competitor that could rub off on the rest of the team.

I've followed the NBA for awhile myself (about 18 years) although probably not as long as you but i've seen some of the fierce competitors as well.

I do see a competitor in Bogut and a guy who wants to win but I also see a young a frustrated player at times who probably feels like the ''lost man''.

I think to bring that the true player and true competator out in Bogut he needs to mature and improve his game but he also needs good & smart coaching and it would be huge for his development if he was in a postitive/winning environment.

My opinion.

And the for the record once agian,I don't think Bogut is a dominate player being held back the guards or whatever some people want to interpet from my post.I just think he's a solid player and who would an asset on a winning team.

In other words I view Anderw Bogut as a ''BASKETBALL PLAYER'' not a great one or dominate one but a solid one.

And the Bucks don't have very many ''basketball players'' right now,we have scorers and guys who love to shoot 3's and not do much of anything else and guys who have ZERO INTEREST IN PLAYING DEFENSE.

Among the roster we have in my opinion 3 solid ''Basketball players'' on the team.Bogut,Yi & Mo.

And 3 solid ''role players''.Voshkul,Ivery & Ruffin.

[Newz]

I hardly think its tough to put forth effort when you constantly have the ball....the problem is that Mo Williams is simply not of a high basketball IQ nor is Redd, when you have those type of players handling the ball alot, well you simply lose basketball games, as there tenure together has constantly taught us.

I find it laughable that everything Bogut can't or doesn't do that you try to blame on Mo and Redd. He doesn't play hard because they have the ball a lot and have 'low basketball IQs'?

The 'low basketball IQ' argument is just another way of saying "Sure, Mo and Redd are better players than Bogut, so we need to think of a way to try and make Bogut seem more important/talented than he really is."

I am considering starting to make the same lame excuses for Redd and Mo, just to show you how absurd you all sound.

The only thing that the Mo/Redd/Bogut era has proved to me is that we wasted money on Simmons, Gadzuric, Mason, Bell and we haven't surrounded our core with talented enough players to compete.

[rilamann]

I'm wondering how using Bogut properly will lead to him getting around 4 more rebounds per game? This of course in response to saying he could average 16/12/4/1.5

I can understand if you think 'using him properly' will increase points and assists since he is getting more touches... Though more shots would usually lead to a lower FG%. I don't agree, but I understand your train of thought there.

I just don't understand how using him properly is going to make him an elite level rebounder...

I think Bogut still has a chance to be a 15/10/3 with 1 to 1.5 blocks per game... Which I'm fine with, just like I'm fine with the production he has given us this year. I just wish people would stop saying he is some sort of star and just accept he is a solid player, nothing special.

If Bogut is used properly his overall production will increase including his rebounding.

The reason I belive that is the fact if he's used properly his attitude will improve and your going to do a better job with a better attitude at anything in life.

And i've already said it,I never have said Bogut is or would be a dominate player or a big star all i've ever said is that he would be solid if used more and used properly.

I challenge you or anyone else on this board to find post of mine where I have said Bogut would be dominate or a superstar player or that the offense should revolve around him.

The closest thing to that I have ever said that is that I feel Bogut has all star potential and I do belive that.Bogut has work to do but if he continues to work I think down the road he has a shot to make a couple all star teams.

[Newz]

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If Bogut is used properly his overall production will increase including his rebounding.

The reason I belive that is the fact if he's used properly his attitude will improve and your going to do a better job with a better attitude at anything in life.

And i've already said it,I never have said Bogut is or would be a dominate player or a big star all i've ever said is that he would be solid if used more and used properly.

I challenge you or anyone else on this board to find post of mine where I have said Bogut would be dominate or a superstar player or that the offense should revolve around him.

The closest thing to that I have ever said that is that I feel Bogut has all star potential and I do belive that.Bogut has work to do but if he continues to work I think down the road he has a shot to make a couple all star teams.

16/12/4/1.5 is damn near a elite player at the center position.


I also think you're getting paranoid... I didn't accuse you of saying he was going to be elite or a superstar... I simply said if he averaged 12 RPGs he would be an elite rebounder.

I don't understand how 'using him properly' is going to cause him to get nearly four more rebounds per game though?

Like I said, I understand your argument when it comes to points and assists... I said I think Bogut can still be a 15/10/3 guy... I just don't understand how he randomly becomes an elite rebounder?

[BuckFan25226]

Only Army you were in is the Army of the Flip Flops Sigra.

Actually he's man enough to admit he was wrong and admits he changed his mind based on watching Bogut more and more. There is nothing wrong with that, or do you think everyone should be stubborn hard asses and never change their tune on anything?


Rilamann, just like people are putting words in your mouth, don't put them in mine or anyone else that disagrees with you. I'm not a Bogut hater, I actually love Bogut. But I don't think he's as good as some think he is. My perception is some like to blame everyone else except Bogut for the holes in his game.


Just like people have said if we had a different backcourt or a better team around Bogut, he would improve. Wow, what a concept, of course he would! Just like Mo and Redd would improve with a better Center, Power foward, or anything close to a starting caliber small foward. While we all bitch about Redd, Mo, and Bogut. The main problem this season has been those 3 have probably the worst supporting cast in the league.

Dez Mason - Disappointment
Bobby Simmons - No need for an explanation
Charlie Bell - 27%, didn't want to be here at first, probably still doesn't
CV - decent backup PF
Yi - good backup PF.

We can all agree that Mo, Redd, and Bogut are no Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan. We can all agree they aren't Ray, Pierce, and KG. We can all agree they aren't D-Williams, Boozer, and AK47 or Okur.

No matter how you look at it, the players put in place around those 3 has turned into an absolute nightmare. I say we all just agree those 3 alone can't take a terrible supporting cast into the playoffs. Those 3 with solid pieces around them could be a very good team.

[rilamann]

[quote="LukePliska"][/quote]

Get some guards who can play a lick of defense and thats 2 more rebounds at least for Bogut.Its hard to grab rebounds when there arent many to be had because your opponet is shooting 50+%.

Agree?

and then add 2 more with an improved attitude.

You got your 12 rebounds.

Actually 13,I havent looked at the numbers in a while but isnt Bogut avg'g 9 rebs this season?

I also wanted to mention that when I bash the guards defense but say I like what Mo has done this season it goes back to what i've been saying for years.Play Mo as a 6th man.

Mo has a great ability to score obviously and I like his attitude,he along with Bogut is one of the guys who realy seems bothered by the losing.

[BuckFan25226]

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16/12/4/1.5 is damn near a elite player at the center position.


I also think you're getting paranoid... I didn't accuse you of saying he was going to be elite or a superstar... I simply said if he averaged 12 RPGs he would be an elite rebounder.

I don't understand how 'using him properly' is going to cause him to get nearly four more rebounds per game though?

Like I said, I understand your argument when it comes to points and assists... I said I think Bogut can still be a 15/10/3 guy... I just don't understand how he randomly becomes an elite rebounder?

That's one thing that has disappointed me more then anything with Bogut, his rebounding. I believe at the current moment J-Kidd averages more rebounds then Bogut. He's like 37th in rebounds per 48 minutes. While I like his defensive improvements, his rebounding has been a disappointment.

[BuckFan25226]

Get some guards who can play a lick of defense and thats 2 more rebounds at least for Bogut.Its hard to grab rebounds when there arent many to be had because your opponet is shooting 50+%.

Agree?

and then add 2 more with an improved attitude.

You got your 12 rebounds.

Actually 13,I havent looked at the numbers in a while but isnt Bogut avg'g 9 rebs this season?

I also wanted to mention that when I bash the guards defense but say I like what Mo has done this season it goes back to what i've been saying for years.Play Mo as a 6th man.

Mo has a great ability to score obviously and I like his attitude,he along with Bogut is one of the guys who realy seems bothered by the losing.

I don't agree at all, that argument has no merit to it whatsoever. We're giving up about 47% shooting. The league average is about 45%. You're telling me that is going to net him at least 2 more rebounds per game? Again, blaming everyone and their brother for Bogut.

[Newz]

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I don't agree at all, that argument has no merit to it whatsoever. We're giving up about 47% shooting. The league average is about 45%. You're telling me that is going to net him at least 2 more rebounds per game? Again, blaming everyone and their brother for Bogut.

Not to mention he is saying he is just randomly going to snatch up 2 more reounds per game because of 'improved attitude'...

So you are standing up for Bogut even though you admit that his attitude sucks?

Could the blaming things on Mo and Redd get any more ridiculous?

It's Bogut's fault Mo and Redd can't win because he isn't a legit post threat.

Bogut doesn't create enough easy opportunities with his supposed great ability to pass.

Bogut's shot blocking has greatly decreased and thus made it harder for the perimeter defense to keep their man in front of them.

Bogut can't draw a double team in the post and thus doesn't create enough wide open shots for our guards...

Bogut can't hit an open 15 footer and thus decreases Mo and Redd's assist numbers by not being able to make them.

Do you want me to start using foolish arguments like that to counter your own? Do you realize how pathetic it sounds?

How about get some forwards who don't suck and improve on what is the worst bench in the entire NBA... Then if this team can't do anything come talk to me about it... Until then stop trying to blame our best two players (Mo/Redd) for not being able to turn Bogut into a all-star player.

[icat2000]

Only Army you were in is the Army of the Flip Flops Sigra.

Actually he's man enough to admit he was wrong and admits he changed his mind based on watching Bogut more and more. There is nothing wrong with that, or do you think everyone should be stubborn hard asses and never change their tune on anything?

No as a rule no. It was merely an observation beyond all things Bogut that Sigra frequently changes his mind on a lot of things. And that is fine. Just need to keep that in perspective when progressing his posts.

[BuckFan25226]

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I don't agree at all, that argument has no merit to it whatsoever. We're giving up about 47% shooting. The league average is about 45%. You're telling me that is going to net him at least 2 more rebounds per game? Again, blaming everyone and their brother for Bogut.

Not to mention he is saying he is just randomly going to snatch up 2 more reounds per game because of 'improved attitude'...

So you are standing up for Bogut even though you admit that his attitude sucks?

Could the blaming things on Mo and Redd get any more ridiculous?

It's Bogut's fault Mo and Redd can't win because he isn't a legit post threat.

Bogut doesn't create enough easy opportunities with his supposed great ability to pass.

Bogut's shot blocking has greatly decreased and thus made it harder for the perimeter defense to keep their man in front of them.

Bogut can't draw a double team in the post and thus doesn't create enough wide open shots for our guards...

Bogut can't hit an open 15 footer and thus decreases Mo and Redd's assist numbers by not being able to make them.

Do you want me to start using foolish arguments like that to counter your own? Do you realize how pathetic it sounds?

How about get some forwards who don't suck and improve on what is the worst bench in the entire NBA... Then if this team can't do anything come talk to me about it... Until then stop trying to blame our best two players (Mo/Redd) for not being able to turn Bogut into a all-star player.

I really thought I had heard it all with the Bogut excuses, but my God.

[rilamann]

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I don't agree at all, that argument has no merit to it whatsoever. We're giving up about 47% shooting. The league average is about 45%. You're telling me that is going to net him at least 2 more rebounds per game? Again, blaming everyone and their brother for Bogut.

Its a fact though,if guards arent getting up on shooters and allowing them to shoot a high % there are going to be less avalible rebounds.

And if your guards are giving up penetration your bigs will have to help defnese which takes them out of good postition to rebound.

Baksetball is a team game and everyone has to do their job for the team to be succcessful.

I know it sounds like its making excuses for Bogut but its a fact,the team is horrible on D and there just isnt many rebounds to grab.Bogut actually does a good job boxing out a grabing rebounds when they are there to be had.
.

[paul]

Tell me BuckFan and LukePliska, do u guys honestly feel this strongly about bogut, or are you just looking for a fight? The amount of smart a** comments and sarcasm in this thread i swear to god, if this was a bar it would have been an all in brawl by now.
So Bogut has a great game, we win, and we end up fighting about him for a day and 20 pages? I'll say one thing about this board, it's always interesting.

[Newz]

Tell me BuckFan and LukePliska, do u guys honestly feel this strongly about bogut, or are you just looking for a fight? The amount of smart a** comments and sarcasm in this thread i swear to god, if this was a bar it would have been an all in brawl by now.
So Bogut has a great game, we win, and we end up fighting about him for a day and 20 pages? I'll say one thing about this board, it's always interesting.

...

Do the other people in this thread feel that strongly about Redd and Mo that they have to blame everything on them?

I have never said Bogut is our problem, he isn't... Our problem isn't Mo or Redd either.

Our problem is that we have one of the worst starting forward combinations in the NBA and the worst bench in the NBA. Upgrade those areas and the team will become a whole lot better... It has nothing to do with Mo or Redd, just like it has nothing to do with Bogut why we are losing.

But apparently people want to throw the blame on our two best players (Mo and Redd) for no apparent reason.

[BuckFan25226]

Tell me BuckFan and LukePliska, do u guys honestly feel this strongly about bogut, or are you just looking for a fight? The amount of smart a** comments and sarcasm in this thread i swear to god, if this was a bar it would have been an all in brawl by now.
So Bogut has a great game, we win, and we end up fighting about him for a day and 20 pages? I'll say one thing about this board, it's always interesting.

I'm glad you would try and beat me up over a disagreement about the Bucks.

Go back pages. I've already said what you just said. It's sad, we finally get a road win, and this turns into a Bogut thread. It is what it is though. I don't have beef with Rilamann or anything, he's cool. We just disagree on this topic, why we continue to debate it? Who knows, because it's fun?