The Official Playoffs Thread

[trwi7]

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak, Sasha Pavlavic, and Daniel Gibson are all good to very good players

It's sad that you actually believe these players are "good to very good."

[LUKE23]

It is a lot easier to make Gasol, Bynum and Odom better than it is to make Mo, Z and Varaejo better. Why? Because those first three guys are very good players regardless.

Yep, why some people continue to gloss over this amazes me. If LeBron had Kobe's supporting cast, he'd have a ring this year. It's not even in doubt. The Cavs, if they somehow win a title, will probably go down as having the worst supporting cast outside of the #1 player in NBA history. I can't think of a worse one. Gasol, Odom, Bynum would start on pretty much every team in the league.

Those insinuating that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better, I'll ask, do you watch basketball? Is it his fault that his teammates can't even make open shots?

LeBron is better than Kobe. It's not debatable. You cannot debate two players when one has a significantly better supporting cast.

The real test is answer this question, who wins a game between LeBron/Gasol/Odom/Bynum and Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum? The answer is the first team.

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak, Sasha Pavlavic, and Daniel Gibson are all good to very good players

[trwi7]

Seriously, do those players' family members even think they're good right now?

[Wise1]

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak, Sasha Pavlavic, and Daniel Gibson are all good to very good players

It's sad that you actually believe these players are "good to very good."

Selective editing on your part. Good to very good applies to my entire list. Everyone in your list is what I would call a good player in his own right. Experience counts. So does continuity.

[Wise1]

It is a lot easier to make Gasol, Bynum and Odom better than it is to make Mo, Z and Varaejo better. Why? Because those first three guys are very good players regardless.

Yep, why some people continue to gloss over this amazes me. If LeBron had Kobe's supporting cast, he'd have a ring this year. It's not even in doubt. The Cavs, if they somehow win a title, will probably go down as having the worst supporting cast outside of the #1 player in NBA history. I can't think of a worse one. Gasol, Odom, Bynum would start on pretty much every team in the league.

Those insinuating that LeBron doesn't make his teammates better, I'll ask, do you watch basketball? Is it his fault that his teammates can't even make open shots?

LeBron is better than Kobe. It's not debatable. You cannot debate two players when one has a significantly better supporting cast.

The real test is answer this question, who wins a game between LeBron/Gasol/Odom/Bynum and Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum? The answer is the first team.

Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Wally Szczerbiak, Sasha Pavlavic, and Daniel Gibson are all good to very good players

Why are you glossing over the fact that Lebron is a member of the best team is basketball? Do you expect any objective mind to believe that one man leads a team to 66 wins...especially when he only won 45 games the previous year while putting up amazing numbers?

By the way, Bynum is young and overrated. Also one good game does not now make Lamar Odom a dependable big game performer. He misses entirely too many free throws and is a wildly inconsistent offensive player.

[trwi7]

Again, I don't even think Cavs fans would call Pavlovic, Scissorhands or Gibson good players.

Francisco Elson is experienced and he sucks. Ben Wallace is experienced and he's washed up. Continuity does not matter if you suck.

[LUKE23]

Why are you glossing over the fact that Lebron is a member of the best team is basketball? Do you expect any objective mind to believe that one man leads a team to 66 wins...especially when he only won 45 games the previous year while putting up amazing numbers?

They are the best team in basketball because of LeBron!!! You're just reinforcing my argument for me. They had the most wins with a very average supporting cast. It just shows how good LeBron is. How many games would the Cavs have won if they had Gasol, Odom, Bynum all year? 70+.

By the way, Bynum is young and overrated. Also one good game does not now make Lamar Odom a dependable big game performer. He misses entirely too many free throws and is a wildly inconsistent offensive player.

The Lakers supporting cast is far better. Why are you even debating this when it is quite obviously true? Do you think any GM in the league would take the Cavs supporting cast over the Lakers? If the Cavs supporting cast is even comparable, why are they not producing, even with LeBron getting them open shot after open shot?

[Wise1]

Again, I don't even think Cavs fans would call Pavlovic, Scissorhands or Gibson good players.

Francisco Elson is experienced and he sucks. Ben Wallace is experienced and he's washed up. Continuity does not matter if you suck.

Your unwilling to grasp the big picture. All of the players that I referenced are a part of a "team" that won 66 games...the best "taem" in the league. Not even Kobe Bryant can win the 65 games that he won on his own with an alleged far superior cast of others.

Pavlovic provides his "team" with a good situational defender and 3 point shooter. Gibson provides his team, when at his best, with one of the league's best spot shooting 3 point options. Ben Wallace is still an above average defender and provides knowledge and leadership to young players like James. He's been there before.

It's not uncommon that many young people don't fully grasp everything that goes into winning and how seemingly insignificant pieces are actually vital to a teams overall purpose and effectiveness.

Bottom line, you don't win 66 games on the strength of one man. While it's true Kobe doesn't win 65 games without his others, the same is true about Lebron and his 66 wins. You can spout off about the Lamar Odom's and Bynums of the world all you want, but that "team" won less games than the Cavalier team. Granted the Lakers beat the Cavs in both head to head matchups this season.

[LUKE23]

http://www.wagesofwins.com/2009MVP.html

LeBron produced twice the wins that Kobe did this year. LeBron's teammates were responsible for 37.5 wins, Kobe's teammates were responsible for 47.1 wins. There is zero doubt who the better player is. If LeBron had even Gasol in place of Big Z, forget about Odom and Bynum, he's at minimum making the Finals this year.

[trwi7]

66 games with Mo, Ilgauskas and West as the top three players other than James vs 65 wins with Gasol, Bynum and Odom as the top three players other than Bryant.

Gee, I wonder which guy has the better supporting cast. Such a tough decision. I'm not even going to get into this argument with you, it's that ridiculous and not even worth my time.

[Wise1]

They are the best team in basketball because of LeBron!!! You're just reinforcing my argument for me. They had the most wins with a very average supporting cast. It just shows how good LeBron is. How many games would the Cavs have won if they had Gasol, Odom, Bynum all year? 70+.9

Really? Then explain why the same Lebron who was GREAT last season only won 45 games without Mo Williams. The fact that the Cavs improved a whopping 21 games is due to the fact that they have a roster full of good players that defend and now have continuity. I'll avoid the what if Lebron/Kobe played here or there arguments because they lack factual context. Just heresay.

Also, if Lebron is the player that you say he is and his team is the best team in basketball because of HIM which validates HIM as the best player in the game without debate, then can you further explain why the favored Cavaliers have lost their home court avantage and are on the verge of being knocked out of the playoffs? And not to Kobe and his alleged great suppporting cast, but to the Magic. You can't because you'd be arguing against yourself. If Lebron is what you claim he is, then he wins this series no question. If you blame the "others", then Lebron isn't the one man Atlas that you're propping him up to be. You said it...the Cavs won 66 games "because" of Lebron, not the others.

If the Cavs supporting cast is even comparable, why are they not producing, even with LeBron getting them open shot after open shot?

Have you noticed how horrible Odom, Bynum, Fisher, Vuya-chick, Walton, and many of the Laker others have been? I care not for names. I'll look at how each player performs on the big stage.

I think James needs to manage his teammates better and not try to do to much. He needs to sit back until they get into a groove. Deny it if you want, but Mo, Delonte, and Z can hit shots if they are allowed to get a rhythm. The others on both teams have been inconsistent either offensively or defensively so it'll come down to the better player/leader pulling his team through.

I really like what Varejao has been giving the Cavs. He's underrated and makes winning plays all game long. His team leader has to play better in the 4th quarter.

[Wise1]

66 games with Mo, Ilgauskas and West as the top three players other than James vs 65 wins with Gasol, Bynum and Odom as the top three players other than Bryant.

Gee, I wonder which guy has the better supporting cast. Such a tough decision. I'm not even going to get into this argument with you, it's that ridiculous and not even worth my time.

Top 3 means nothing. The offensive and defensive effectiveness of the "entire" rotation is what should be weighted. 8 men will beat 3 men in a 5 on 5 game.

[Wise1]

http://www.wagesofwins.com/2009MVP.html

LeBron produced twice the wins that Kobe did this year. LeBron's teammates were responsible for 37.5 wins, Kobe's teammates were responsible for 47.1 wins. There is zero doubt who the better player is. If LeBron had even Gasol in place of Big Z, forget about Odom and Bynum, he's at minimum making the Finals this year.

Nice toy for fans of numbers manipulation. There's too much about basketball that cannot be quantified for this guy to rely too heavily on one man's creative fancy.

[Wise1]

http://www.wagesofwins.com/2009MVP.html

LeBron produced twice the wins that Kobe did this year. LeBron's teammates were responsible for 37.5 wins, Kobe's teammates were responsible for 47.1 wins. There is zero doubt who the better player is. If LeBron had even Gasol in place of Big Z, forget about Odom and Bynum, he's at minimum making the Finals this year.

Even if I did rely heavily on metrics like winscores, couldn't I also take the same data and state that Kobe apparently managed his team better, made his teammates better, by not dominating games on a nightly bases which would in turn prepare his others for tough playoff wins ahead? I'd say it would be a sound strategy to allow your teammates to gain confidence in the regular season so that they may be of better help to you in the playoffs. A player with rings and nothing else to prove in the regular season would seemingly think that way.

Rely on your brains and intuition. Humans are better than numbers. After all, we created them. They are a tool for reference, but your guts and instincts should lead you. Not your "numbers".

[LUKE23]

You haven't really debated the points laid out with anything substantial, so I'm just going to have to stop replying in this thread regarding Kobe vs. LeBron.

[Wise1]

You haven't really debated the points laid out with anything substantial, so I'm just going to have to stop replying in this thread regarding Kobe vs. LeBron.

Sure I have. Apparently my rebuttles are beyond your ability to refute. I'm not surprised that you're bowing out now after my last responses to your recent posts. It's okay though. I have the advantage of experience over you.

[LUKE23]

Sure I have. Apparently my rebuttles are beyond your ability to refute. I'm not surprised that you're bowing out now after my last responses to your recent posts. It's okay though. I have the advantage of experience over you.

[Wise1]

Sure I have. Apparently my rebuttles are beyond your ability to refute. I'm not surprised that you're bowing out now after my last responses to your recent posts. It's okay though. I have the advantage of experience over you.

I'd peeked back in here thinking that you were going to rise up to my challenge. Carry on.

[LUKE23]

I'm debating it with things backed up my numbers, you're backing it up with just your beliefs without any concrete evidence. I've already shown that LeBron takes up more of the slack for his team than Kobe has, by a long shot. I showed that LeBron won more games with a worse supporting cast than Kobe had in the regular season. We both know Kobe has a better supporting cast. You can twist it all you'd like, but we both know the facts. I'm not going to debate when I've already shown you the numbers, and when it's very clear that Kobe's supporting cast is superior, and has played superior in these playoffs.

[europa]

Go Magic.