Caron Butler traded to Bucks for Ish Smith and Kratsov

[emunney]

Yeah, we quantum suck.

[Buckrageous]

No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.

Not sure to whom or what you think you're responding here, so let's recap.

You: Woj said LeBron will never win a championship, so it doesn't mean anything that he said we never had a shot at Bledsoe.
Me: He took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but he never said LeBron would never win a championship.
You: A fair amount of shots? You probably loved all those shots he took.

Can you see why I might think you're crazy?

No. But I also can't SE why you taking personal shots at someone because they called into question your favorite yahoo hack.

[driese0824]

I didn't realize a pick wasn't involved, well that's good. So I guess Butler would start and then Middleton/Delfino (if healthy) get the back-up minutes. Giannis will be pretty limited, which is what we kind of expected.

For me, this trade makes sense since you gave up nothing to get him BUT the signing of Delfino looks kind of questionable now. Basically could've had Butler for 8M and saved paying similar for Carlos.

We'll see how Larry Drew handles the rotations.

I think the bucks wanted fino as a MD2 type of guy some guy who could come off the bench and score,i never thought when they signed him it was to make him a starter,when healthy he will get his 15 to 20 mins a game and hopefully do what mike jr did which was to hit shots.

[paulpressey25]

What's win now though? I'd be surprised if they were over 40 wins or under 34 wins.

I had them at 32 wins before this. I still want to see the pre-season but I'm pushing them now up to 34 wins if Butler plays in 50 games. Up to 35-36 wins if Butler is healthy all year.

[Buckrageous]

No, I don't think he ever did that. He certainly took more than his fair share of shots at LeBron, but claiming that he'd never win a championship? I don't think so.

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.

You didn't say that he took shots at LeBron, you said that he stated that Lebron would never win a championship. His articles were usually making the point that if LeBron didn't make changes he wouldn't win a championship. The funny thing is, now that he has two, many who have always been LeBron backers fail to acknowledge that to get them he had to make the changes and corrections people slammed him for not making for years.

Back on topic, Caron always looked like a vampire to me.

Ahhhh yes! The "we weren't wrong about Lebron, Lebron just changed" argument. I love that one. It's very hard for people to just admit they were wrong. That is a tremendous example of it. I would love here about these changes "Robin" made.

[LUKE23]

Just throwing it out there for discussion. 2012-13 numbers per 36.

Butler: 15.6 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, .424/.388/.833, .535 TS, .202 USG, .091 WS/48, 107 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 12.4 PER

Delfino: 15.1 points, 4.7 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.4 steals, .405/.375/.857, .532 TS, .186 USG, .101 WS/48, 109 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 13.3 PER

You couldn't find two more statistically identical players if you tried.

[glenn]

Fair amount of shots? Lol, it was practically his whole career there for a while. I'm guessing you were amongst those giddy every time he came up with a new hit piece.

You didn't say that he took shots at LeBron, you said that he stated that Lebron would never win a championship. His articles were usually making the point that if LeBron didn't make changes he wouldn't win a championship. The funny thing is, now that he has two, many who have always been LeBron backers fail to acknowledge that to get them he had to make the changes and corrections people slammed him for not making for years.

Back on topic, Caron always looked like a vampire to me.

Ahhhh yes! The "we weren't wrong about Lebron, Lebron just changed" argument. I love that one. It's very hard for people to just admit they were wrong. That is a tremendous example of it.

Do you actually watch basketball?

[Buckrageous]

You didn't say that he took shots at LeBron, you said that he stated that Lebron would never win a championship. His articles were usually making the point that if LeBron didn't make changes he wouldn't win a championship. The funny thing is, now that he has two, many who have always been LeBron backers fail to acknowledge that to get them he had to make the changes and corrections people slammed him for not making for years.

Back on topic, Caron always looked like a vampire to me.

Ahhhh yes! The "we weren't wrong about Lebron, Lebron just changed" argument. I love that one. It's very hard for people to just admit they were wrong. That is a tremendous example of it.

Do you actually watch basketball?

No I don't, that's a very astute observation. Heck of a rebuttal

[ctorres]

Knicks fan, I like this trade for you guys. You needed a small forward to round out your rotation. Defino and some unknown prospects weren't enough. Now with Butler, you add a vet who should help Knight, Illyadova, Henson, and Sanders.

[pilprin]

Veteran's help young players develop. We have a nice mix...IMHO.

[engelmartin]

Just throwing it out there for discussion. 2012-13 numbers per 36.

Butler: 15.6 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, .424/.388/.833, .535 TS, .202 USG, .091 WS/48, 107 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 12.4 PER

Delfino: 15.1 points, 4.7 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.4 steals, .405/.375/.857, .532 TS, .186 USG, .101 WS/48, 109 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 13.3 PER

You couldn't find two more statistically identical players if you tried.

Exact point I was trying to make. Does Butler get to the cup a little bit more, though? What about FT #s? We could use some Clippers fans intel.

I made a thread on the Clippers board asking those exact questions. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[glenn]

Ahhhh yes! The "we weren't wrong about Lebron, Lebron just changed" argument. I love that one. It's very hard for people to just admit they were wrong. That is a tremendous example of it.

Do you actually watch basketball?

No I don't, that's a very astute observation. Heck of a rebuttal

Rebuttal to what? I don't even know why I felt like responding to you in the first place. You just implied that players don't develop. If you can't see how LeBron's game has progressed in the last two years I'm sure not going to be able to convince you. I will believe that you are usually a fun and delightful poster, so I will cut this short and only speak about how Caron Bulter = Vampire.

[ReasonablySober]

and it takes away minutes from a guy in Middleton who would have been better.

I can't subscribe to that notion. Take a look at Middleton's stats last year. We are looking at a guy who averaged 8 points game the final month of the year when he got PT during garbage time.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... -middleton

He seems like a nice prospect but expecting him to outproduce Caron Butler for wins doesn't make sense. Butler isn't half the player he was five years ago, but he's a dependable vet who is going to make some plays that will lead to wins we otherwise wouldn't have gotten, assuming he stays healthy.

I'm looking at his stats. He averaged 8 points a game on 61% TS. That's an indictment? Especially over a guy who only averaged 10 PPG on the season?

[ReasonablySober]

Just throwing it out there for discussion. 2012-13 numbers per 36.

Butler: 15.6 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals, .424/.388/.833, .535 TS, .202 USG, .091 WS/48, 107 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 12.4 PER

Delfino: 15.1 points, 4.7 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.4 steals, .405/.375/.857, .532 TS, .186 USG, .101 WS/48, 109 ORTG, 107 DRTG, 13.3 PER

You couldn't find two more statistically identical players if you tried.

I said the same thing last night. All the Bucks did was add another Delfino. This wasn't a win-now move.

[HurricaneKid]

Nobody cares about losing Ish Smith. Only a few people care about losing Kratsov. The point is they should never take on a garbage salary much less give up anything in return. Teams taking on bad deals RECEIVE assets, not give them.

I have always been reluctant to believe Gi could possibly play this season. Its just too big a jump. He needs at least a year, probably two, just to get used to the competition.

Its been 5 years since Caron was worth anything close to 8MM/. And the poster that mentioned this is reminscent of the Marquis Daniels signing is right. Why create an obstacle to getting your young talent minutes for an overpaid veteran with no upside? Its maddening.

[LUKE23]

Veteran's help young players develop. We have a nice mix...IMHO.

PT helps young players develop.

Right now, Giannis is getting essentially none and I'd be surprised if Henson got over 20.

[LUKE23]

I said the same thing last night. All the Bucks did was add another Delfino. This wasn't a win-now move.

Yeah, and I never disagreed, but I also don't believe it lowers our wins either. This was basically just lighting $8M on fire, or $6.5M, if you look at the salary we traded out.

[Chapter29]

There is nothing wrong with having a balance of vets and youth.

Its how they are developed / used.

Since we have a new coach I am going to withhold judgement on how they are used.

Do you honestly think that if Giannis is producing that we'd be afraid to sit the likes of an old Butler and Delfino? It starts in practice. Giannis starts whoppin butts, he'll get PT.

[ReasonablySober]

I said the same thing last night. All the Bucks did was add another Delfino. This wasn't a win-now move.

Yeah, and I never disagreed, but I also don't believe it lowers our wins either. This was basically just lighting $8M on fire, or $6.5M, if you look at the salary we traded out.

I agree. I think at worst the win-total remained the same. It took a win or two off the board if Middleton takes even a minimal leap and had gotten Dunleavy (25ish) minutes.

[Buckrageous]

Veteran's help young players develop. We have a nice mix...IMHO.

PT helps young players develop.

Right now, Giannis is getting essentially none and I'd be surprised if Henson got over 20.

That would be terrible. That's my fear here as well. Henson needs to get 25-30 some way. He should share 4 time with Ersan and get some backup 5 minutes (will probably go to Zaza). GA buried would be a travesty. He's needs to keep playing. Sitting on his ass watching a couple of 33 year olds play his position while scraping together 34 wins is a waste.