The Official Playoffs Thread

paul · Post #3381 » by **paul** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 6:04 am

trwi7 wrote:This thread is pretty much unreadable with the LeBron/Kobe ****.

Actually I agree yet foolishly answered a question that was posed on the topic. I said about 40 pages ago this conversation got very old 120 pages ago - I stand by that :wink:

Sigra · Post #3382 » by **Sigra** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 6:07 am

lawrybeard wrote:The fact is, if Kobe had LeBron's supporting cast you would be raving about how good Kobe's frontcourt is.

Exactly. Kobe is the best player period.

mbucks22 · Post #3383 » by **mbucks22** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 7:09 am

nonplayerzealot wrote:
aboveAverage wrote:Great game by the Lakers. It really pays to have a good coach (or a great one). You could see the adjustments they made after watching Mike Brown shoot himself in the foot game after game.

What do you mean, just this decade you had George Karl (chuckles).

Yeah and if not for a ridiculous suspension, we would've most likely been facing your Lakers in the Finals that year.

Typing that and thinking of where we are now makes me incredibly depressed.

midranger · Post #3384 » by **midranger** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 12:23 pm

We've all seen what Kobe did with the equivalent to Lebron's supporting cast.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

Rockmaninoff · Post #3385 » by **Rockmaninoff** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 12:38 pm

Wise1 wrote:Why in the world would you use a mouth guard when you leave it hanging outside of your mouth 100% of the time?

Yes, that is extremely annoying.

Besides Pietrus pooping the bed, the thing that hurt Orlando the most was playing Nelson when he hasn't earned his way to the Finals.

If they were going to play him at all, they should have waited for a decisive moment. An elimination game. A game 6 or 7. That would have given them a psychological edge. Now all that Nelson is providing, is an off-kilter rhythm and suspect defense.

LUKE23 wrote:
aboveAverage wrote:Great game by the Lakers. It really pays to have a good coach (or a great one). You could see the adjustments they made after watching Mike Brown shoot himself in the foot game after game.

Yep. Jackson is the best coach in the game.

He wasn't last year. The difference, is that his guy is playing like the best in the world, and the refs are letting the Lakers hack everyone to pieces.

PaBuck · Post #3386 » by **PaBuck** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:08 pm

The bottom line is winning. Kobe knows how to win and Lebron still is not at that level. We can if this and if that forever. Ultimately, greatness is measured by winning. If Lebron were a pro golfer, he would be categorized as best player never to have won a major and still be walking in Tiger's shadow, or in the NBA, Kobe's.

midranger · Post #3387 » by **midranger** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:13 pm

PaBuck wrote:The bottom line is winning. Kobe knows how to win and Lebron still is not at that level. We can if this and if that forever. Ultimately, greatness is measured by winning. If Lebron were a pro golfer, he would be categorized as best player never to have won a major and still be walking in Tiger's shadow, or in the NBA, Kobe's.

No, if he were a pro golfer, he wouldn't have 4 other guys dragging him down.

Lebron is obviously a better individual player than Kobe. I'd leave golf comparisons out. Your only chance is to argue team accomplishments.

drew881 · Post #3388 » by **drew881** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:14 pm

midranger wrote:We've all seen what Kobe did with the equivalent to Lebron's supporting cast.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

Not sure that is fair....

The only decent player on that team is Lamar Odom, and I believe that was his first year on the team?

1) James has at least been playing with most of this same group multiple years (there is chemistry)

2) The team has current all-stars (Mo Williams). Not going to check, but I doubt Lamar was an all-star that year.

3) Lebron's team has past all-stars such as Ilgauskus who still play at a pretty high level. Kobe had a future all-star (Caron Butler who wasn't anything special yet), and past all-stars like Divac who didn't play at all.

4) That team played in the west

5) Coaching change: the team was 24-19 under Rudy T before he had to leave for health reasons. Your link even says that.

PaBuck · Post #3389 » by **PaBuck** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:20 pm

midranger wrote:
PaBuck wrote:The bottom line is winning. Kobe knows how to win and Lebron still is not at that level. We can if this and if that forever. Ultimately, greatness is measured by winning. If Lebron were a pro golfer, he would be categorized as best player never to have won a major and still be walking in Tiger's shadow, or in the NBA, Kobe's.

No, if he were a pro golfer, he wouldn't have 4 other guys dragging him down.

Lebron is obviously a better individual player than Kobe. I'd leave golf comparisons out. Your only chance is to argue team accomplishments.

My point here is that whatever the sport, individual or team, winning is the ultimate measure of greatness.

Wise1 · Post #3390 » by **Wise1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:48 pm

PaBuck wrote:
midranger wrote:
PaBuck wrote:The bottom line is winning. Kobe knows how to win and Lebron still is not at that level. We can if this and if that forever. Ultimately, greatness is measured by winning. If Lebron were a pro golfer, he would be categorized as best player never to have won a major and still be walking in Tiger's shadow, or in the NBA, Kobe's.

No, if he were a pro golfer, he wouldn't have 4 other guys dragging him down.

Lebron is obviously a better individual player than Kobe. I'd leave golf comparisons out. Your only chance is to argue team accomplishments.

My point here is that whatever the sport, individual or team, winning is the ultimate measure of greatness.

Maybe it's a generational thing. Kids nowadays want everything given to them and are largely unwilling to put in the work to get it. It's a spoiled generation. You're absolutely right. In sports, greatness does not exist absent of winning. History has taught us that. Hard to sell that to the generation of entitlement.

Wise1 · Post #3391 » by **Wise1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 1:57 pm

midranger wrote:
PaBuck wrote:The bottom line is winning. Kobe knows how to win and Lebron still is not at that level. We can if this and if that forever. Ultimately, greatness is measured by winning. If Lebron were a pro golfer, he would be categorized as best player never to have won a major and still be walking in Tiger's shadow, or in the NBA, Kobe's.

No, if he were a pro golfer, he wouldn't have 4 other guys dragging him down.

Lebron is obviously a better individual player than Kobe. I'd leave golf comparisons out. Your only chance is to argue team accomplishments.

Ummm, would you like to compare Kobe's individual accomplishments to Lebron's? You don't even have that to stand on. In any event, this is a team sport where greatness is measured in wins. Try as you might, but you can't get around that. Lebron could average 50 points and 30 rebounds, but if he can't "win" with those numbers he'll go down in history as a talented player that couldn't win at the highest level. Think Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, or Bernard King. Breathtaking talents, but not quite Magic, Bird, Jordan, or Kobe.

jerrod · Post #3392 » by **jerrod** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 2:09 pm

Wise1 wrote:Maybe it's a generational thing. Kids nowadays want everything given to them and are largely unwilling to put in the work to get it. It's a spoiled generation. You're absolutely right. In sports, greatness does not exist absent of winning. History has taught us that. Hard to sell that to the generation of entitlement.

says the guy shilling for kobe bryant, the player who so couldn't stand to be the 2nd best player on his own team that he got one of the most dominant centers of all time traded not long after winning 3 titles.

staggering

Wise1 · Post #3393 » by **Wise1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 2:30 pm

jerrod wrote:
Wise1 wrote:Maybe it's a generational thing. Kids nowadays want everything given to them and are largely unwilling to put in the work to get it. It's a spoiled generation. You're absolutely right. In sports, greatness does not exist absent of winning. History has taught us that. Hard to sell that to the generation of entitlement.

says the guy shilling for kobe bryant, the player who so couldn't stand to be the 2nd best player on his own team that he got one of the most dominant centers of all time traded not long after winning 3 titles.

staggering

How old was Kobe when that happened? Just wondering. In any event, what do those allegations have to do with entitlement. Actually Kobe's alleged sentiments suggest quite the contrary. Basically, it means that he wanted an opportunity to "prove" that he could "win" and lead without having an older, dominant big man leading the team. If there was a sense of entitlement there, I would suggest that Kobe would have been content to play alongside Shaq and win serveral more titles together. Why wouldn't a player that states that he plays to be the best want an opportunity to lead a team as "the best player" to a title? By the time he's done, Bryant will probably be on the short list of greatest players of all time.

jerrod · Post #3394 » by **jerrod** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 3:02 pm

there's no doubt that for at least a few more years, having shaq on his team provided a better opportunity to win. that wasn't as important as being the star though. i'm not condemning him for that though, you're just trying to give him this selflessness that i don't think exists

LUKE23 · Post #3395 » by **LUKE23** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 3:04 pm

jerrod wrote:there's no doubt that for at least a few more years, having shaq on his team provided a better opportunity to win. that wasn't as important as being the star though. i'm not condemning him for that though, you're just trying to give him this selflessness that i don't think exists

Bingo.

Nebula1 · Post #3396 » by **Nebula1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 3:53 pm

Nice game last night by the Lakers. They went for the kill early and often. Excellent adjustments to slow Howard... Nothing out of the Orlando camp to check Kobe. Suddenly Orlando looks very overmatched.

#4 coming to you soon Kobe...

Wise1 · Post #3397 » by **Wise1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 4:18 pm

jerrod wrote:there's no doubt that for at least a few more years, having shaq on his team provided a better opportunity to win. that wasn't as important as being the star though. i'm not condemning him for that though, you're just trying to give him this selflessness that i don't think exists

Selflessness hasn't been a part of my argument. My argument is that Kobe is the best player in the game today because he's earned it and continues to prove it. Today, Lebron has proven to be more selfish than Bryant who congratulates his opponents and continues to coach and lead his teammates. Eh, but who cares if Kobe or Lebron are selfish. They are paid to win championships. Whether either is selfish or exibits selflessness is immaterial. Being the absolute best is what this is all about. Losers can't claim the fame. Especially when you don't even "get" to the big game.

Wise1 · Post #3398 » by **Wise1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 4:25 pm

Nebula1 wrote:Nice game last night by the Lakers. They went for the kill early and often. Excellent adjustments to slow Howard... Nothing out of the Orlando camp to check Kobe. Suddenly Orlando looks very overmatched.

#4 coming to you soon Kobe...

The Magic were completely dismantled by 24. Pietrus had no answer for an unpredictable superstar that can get by him without resorting to bull rushes and brute force. I think Kobe has set his sights on Michael's six titles. He's got a lot of work to do, but I think in the back of his mind that's the goal that he wants to achieve. To get there on the backside of his career would be quite a feat.

I can't imagine anyone being a better player than Jordan (who probably wins more titles without the layoff), but Kobe definitely has the potential to nuzzle himself right underneath him. He just has to stay healthy and keep winning.

Nebula1 · Post #3399 » by **Nebula1** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 5:20 pm

I'm thinking Kobe is mostly focused on winning this title. I doubt multiples are on his mind at the moment. For as big a deal as the media makes it, I don't think the Shaq stuff matters to him either. However, I do find it a little odd that Kobe's quest involves defeating a reincarnated Shaq in an Orlando jersey. He probably sees Shaq when he goes to the rim.

midranger · Post #3400 » by **midranger** » Fri Jun 5, 2009 6:29 pm

drew881 wrote:
midranger wrote:We've all seen what Kobe did with the equivalent to Lebron's supporting cast.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

Not sure that is fair....

The only decent player on that team is Lamar Odom, and I believe that was his first year on the team?

Not true. Chris Mihm may not put up sexy 20/20 numbers like some, but he was a good to very good player who made winning plays. I'd put him on par with the player Dwight Howard is now.

There were several other good to very good players on that team like Jumaine Jones, Slava Medvendenko, etc... the list goes on and on.