3rd Annual Fire Kidd Thread - Volume 2 (Horst Interview pg 14)

[brewbucks]

Wish we had the Raptors front office.

[thomchatt3rton]

Of all the insane answers he game today this one might be the most hilarious and concerning.

Read on Twitter

Haha, that is good. I read it like a pre-programmed robot, so that made it funnier.

Giannis is good, Giannis play a lot. Team do well.

"that aboy horsty!" -- Lasry Jr

I wish I was as into mocking Horst as you guys are, because saying "and so it is acceptable" in a robot voice is really amusing me right now.

[worthlessBucks]

I wish I was as into mocking Horst as you guys are, because saying "and so it is acceptable" in a robot voice is really amusing me right now.

It's team pr propaganda. It takes a moment of mental weakness or a slip up to a difficult question (rare) to extract anything of substance. It's autopilot, robotic goodness sent out to the masses.

[thomchatt3rton]

I wish I was as into mocking Horst as you guys are, because saying "and so it is acceptable" in a robot voice is really amusing me right now.

It's team pr propaganda. It takes a moment of mental weakness or a slip up to a difficult question (rare) to extract anything of substance. It's autopilot, robotic goodness sent out to the masses.

...and so it is acceptable beep borp beep


I'm surprised by how many people attach significance that simply doesn't exist to these public comments. FOs have all kinds of reasons for saying the things they say and "because they really mean it" isn't really high on that list.

[blazza18]

Middleton has shown decreased effort since returning from a significant injury last season. Giannis plays 40 minutes a night despite a knee injury that has forced him to take 2 games off the last two months for rest. They are one and two in minutes played per game.

Our coach thinks players should play more minutes now than when he played because "science". Our GM brushed off concerns with "top players and winning".

It's ok though because both guys didn't mean what they meant. They are actually smart and played dumb to the fans.

[bucksfansince88]

Definitely not paying any more of my hard earned money to the organization until our ownership and FO Get serious about not being blissful about their mediocrity... except i will be buying that city edition GA Jersey. No more games though, That Horst interview was the final nail in the coffin

[3Diamantidis]

None of these really matter.
No matter what he said, the truth is that top guys need to get paid.
Giannis got paid. There are other 4 top(by the team's standards) guys that will want to get paid soon(added brogdon to that category). Starting with jabari this summer.
Nobody is going to pay 100mil total contracts for a core of 5 guys that will be a 42-44 W group.
Leaving aside that they will need another 10 guys with ultra low contracts to fill the roster.
Do they love kidd? I don't know but it doesn't matter anymore.
They certainly care about their pocket more(i would too).

Kidd is unlucky because jabari is on a contract season and he's going to get paid without really showing what he can really do.
Suddenly the "young" and "injured" team will be a paid, healthy and still unproven team.
Expectations? If you think now that they are over the edge, wait to see how things will look like in 9 months.
A paid capped out roster, with 5 "top"(bucks view) guys entering one of the most modern new arenas in the league.

Nobody is going to talk about youth and injuries then.
Nobody is going to wait for that long.
Look what happened to the lakers. Neither family is above money.

It's brutal to watch the bucks. 3,5 yrs now. There's a light on that tunnel though.
Thanks to money.

[paulpressey25]

3 observations on the substance.

a) Horst implied "we've only had Bledsoe for 20 or 25 games". Eric has played 33 games for the Bucks. Small thing, but Horst should be within five games of that number. If we're hiring this young and inexperienced guy, I want him to ace with all that.

b) Discussed by all of you earlier, but the "collaborative" approach thing was mentioned multiple times, which means that he's not in charge. And he dropped Feigin's name in there a few times. Wonder if Feigin is supposed to be his executive mentor or if he has to filter stuff to LED via Feigin.

c) He cited the fact the Bucks have utilized the most NBA minutes of two-way players of any team in the league as a personal accomplishment. I'd view that as an indictment on the entire front office going back four years. Leading the league in minutes played by your 16th and 17th men. Not what you want.

[RiotPunch]

BILLBOARD.

[chonestown]

Can any real conclusions be drawn from a GM's appearance on a radio call-in show? If so, which ones exactly?

Him positively mentioning the development of Thon is concerning. It's an unprompted statement at odds with reality.

The rest is spin. Larry Harris was ridiculously photogenic and ready with a quote. Didn't make him a good gm.

So what conclusion do you think can be safely drawn from that Thon comment? It's being unprompted is a good indication we should take it at face-value? How concerned are you on a scale of 1-10 that Horst, somehow, can't tell Thon is playing like crap?

The Larry Harris thing is a good point- if Horst said all the right things, would you really feel encouraged or comforted in any way? Isn't it just as silly to be concerned if he says some "wrong" things?

Disclaimer that everything that follows is speculation: I think Thon's struggles are obvious enough to anyone who spends regular time watching the Bucks. That includes Horst and I'm pretty sure he regards Thon as a work in progress and regards his development as such. I think Thon's progress has stalled out and that there are serious shortcomings in him as a prospect that he will not be able to overcome. My worry is that Horst, like Hammond, has a sweet tooth for drafting/trading on a certain physical profile. Larry, Henson, Thon, Snell, Hobson and Giannis all fit into the length, Length, LENGTH profile. If length doesn't translate into production, what's the use?

[M-C-G]

Middleton has shown decreased effort since returning from a significant injury last season. Giannis plays 40 minutes a night despite a knee injury that has forced him to take 2 games off the last two months for rest. They are one and two in minutes played per game.

Our coach thinks players should play more minutes now than when he played because "science". Our GM brushed off concerns with "top players and winning".

It's ok though because both guys didn't mean what they meant. They are actually smart and played dumb to the fans.

I think the take away for me, is that Kidd is coaching for his job at this point, and right or wrong he is going to run these guys into the ground to get every win. Unfortunately he won't do the far easier thing, change up our offense and defense more, but it is the only lever he understands to pull at this point.

[M-C-G]

Him positively mentioning the development of Thon is concerning. It's an unprompted statement at odds with reality.

The rest is spin. Larry Harris was ridiculously photogenic and ready with a quote. Didn't make him a good gm.

So what conclusion do you think can be safely drawn from that Thon comment? It's being unprompted is a good indication we should take it at face-value? How concerned are you on a scale of 1-10 that Horst, somehow, can't tell Thon is playing like crap?

The Larry Harris thing is a good point- if Horst said all the right things, would you really feel encouraged or comforted in any way? Isn't it just as silly to be concerned if he says some "wrong" things?

Disclaimer that everything that follows is speculation: I think Thon's struggles are obvious enough to anyone who spends regular time watching the Bucks. That includes Horst and I'm pretty sure he regards Thon as a work in progress and regards his development as such. I think Thon's progress has stalled out and that there are serious shortcomings in him as a prospect that he will not be able to overcome. My worry is that Horst, like Hammond, has a sweet tooth for drafting/trading on a certain physical profile. Larry, Henson, Thon, Snell, Hobson and Giannis all fit into the length, Length, LENGTH profile. If length doesn't translate into production, what's the use?

The good thing with Hammond was that once he finally realized a deficiency in the roster, he used the entire off season to over correct it. So let's hope that Horst realizes that we need more basketball players and not more short armed players, otherwise we are about to ink Shane Larkin to a monster deal.

[Ron Swanson]

I'm not nearly as into micro-analyzing every word that Horst utters in a radio interview. He's being put in an impossible position every time they trot him out there. I do think you can glean something from his response to the question about his authority to fire the head coach though. Pretty much essentially confirmed that he doesn't with that non-answer.

[trwi7]

Words really can't describe how dumb this answer is.

Horst: High minutes is a credit for these guys because it shows they are top players. Plus they are playing for a winning team so it is acceptable.

[SkilesTheLimit]

Why does it feel like Herb Kohl 2.0?

I feel like Bucks fans are destined for eternal chaos in the front office and having 3 owners actually makes disruption even more inevitable.

[sidney lanier]

Why does it feel like Herb Kohl 2.0?

I feel like Bucks fans are destined for eternal chaos in the front office and having 3 owners actually makes disruption even more inevitable.

I know PP misses talking about Ron Walter though. Even three bumptious New Yorkers don't match Ron's punching bag appeal as the archetypal meddler. Throw in a couple of doofus comments like "he's got a good left hand" when talking about a left-handed player, and the magic is there.

But seriously, if you've been inside and around and know the messy ways of the organizational world, and how organizations almost all foozle basic things, you're not seeing anything in the current regime that sinks to the level of chaos. The Bucks organization has always been what I would consider average -- not remarkably incompetent, not particularly innovative.

Al McGuire used to say the world is run by C students. So are most NBA teams. I had some firsthand dealings with John Steinmiller (The Elder) years ago and would consider him a cut above a C student. He ran a professional but unremarkable organization. That's also what we have now, provided you're willing to give the goofy facial recognition stuff an indulgent smile and a pass.

These clubs do what everybody else does. Ascribing savant status to some GM or other is a misinterpretation of luck and random variation. Faced with the same set of facts, they pretty much all make the same decisions.

[M-C-G]

Faced with the same set of facts, they pretty much all make the same decisions.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this, or rather that we can't afford to have a C level student, take that how you may.

Like someone mentioned above, if our GM had consistently been making secondary or tertiary moves like the Raptors this team and organization would be way ahead of where we are right now.

Horst seems like a C student, but it is too early to decide for certain, also I won't ever read too deeply into an on air radio interview. It would be silly to be too forthcoming with the truth, there is no upside with that.

[sidney lanier]

Faced with the same set of facts, they pretty much all make the same decisions.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this, or rather that we can't afford to have a C level student, take that how you may.

Like someone mentioned above, if our GM had consistently been making secondary or tertiary moves like the Raptors this team and organization would be way ahead of where we are right now.

Horst seems like a C student, but it is too early to decide for certain, also I won't ever read too deeply into an on air radio interview. It would be silly to be too forthcoming with the truth, there is no upside with that.

I was thinking after I made this post about the role of luck in NBA success. I do maintain that GMs mostly read from the same hymnal and make the same moves given the situation they find themselves in. The ones who seem to be playing 3D chess are more often just lucky.

The role of luck shouldn't be discounted. If the Bucks hadn't won the Alcindor coin flip, I think there's better than a 95% chance that we're not having the pleasure of this conversation, because there would be no Milwaukee Bucks. The team would never have survived here on the backs of Flynn Robinson and Guy Rodgers alone.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Why does it feel like Herb Kohl 2.0?

I feel like Bucks fans are destined for eternal chaos in the front office and having 3 owners actually makes disruption even more inevitable.

I know PP misses talking about Ron Walter though. Even three bumptious New Yorkers don't match Ron's punching bag appeal as the archetypal meddler. Throw in a couple of doofus comments like "he's got a good left hand" when talking about a left-handed player, and the magic is there.

But seriously, if you've been inside and around and know the messy ways of the organizational world, and how organizations almost all foozle basic things, you're not seeing anything in the current regime that sinks to the level of chaos. The Bucks organization has always been what I would consider average -- not remarkably incompetent, not particularly innovative.

Al McGuire used to say the world is run by C students. So are most NBA teams. I had some firsthand dealings with John Steinmiller (The Elder) years ago and would consider him a cut above a C student. He ran a professional but unremarkable organization. That's also what we have now, provided you're willing to give the goofy facial recognition stuff an indulgent smile and a pass.

These clubs do what everybody else does. Ascribing savant status to some GM or other is a misinterpretation of luck and random variation. Faced with the same set of facts, they pretty much all make the same decisions.

there are perennial losers and perennial winners and then there are the ones that fluctuate. weve been a perennial loser. to suggest the last 30 years has been about primarily luck is nonsense.

further.... it insults me personally to suggest that others could run an nba franchise the way I could. or that they could run any business the way I could. it would be insulting to others if I suggested I could run their business the way they do either. you think warren buffett thinks that way?

the nba is a business that needs a plan just like any other. and just like any other there are good decisions and bad decisions. there are risky moves or you could use caution.

and to suggest all coaches are roughly the same means to me you've never played for any. the nba is just like hs or college. within those ranks there is a hierarchy of competency. to suggest otherwise is naïve and speculative. nba players and executive assessments of their coaches are no different than at any other level. some are respected... and some aren't. some are savants and some are in over their head. some get respect. some none......and then there are some that get respect for reasons other than actual coaching ability and that is our Jason kidd. hes respected for his legacy as a player but he would have NEVER gotten this job or anywhere close to coaching at this level if he'd developed a bum knee in high school. hes here for other reasons besides what he can do in a huddle and its blatantly obvious to guys like me. guys who have played at high levels and for some pretty amazing coaches at some of those levels. kidd isn't even close.

[sidney lanier]

there are perennial losers and perennial winners and then there are the ones that fluctuate. weve been a perennial loser. to suggest the last 30 years has been about primarily luck is nonsense.

further.... it insults me personally to suggest that others could run an nba franchise the way I could. or that they could run any business the way I could. it would be insulting I could do it as well as others could. you think warren buffett thinks that way?

the nba is a business that needs a plan just like any other. and just like any other there are good decisions and bad decisions. there are risky moves or you could use caution.

and to suggest all coaches are roughly the same means to me you've never played for any. the nba is just like hs or college. within those ranks there is a hierarchy of competency. to suggest otherwise is naïve and speculative. nba players and executive assessments of their coaches are no different than at any other level. some are respected... and some aren't. some are savants and some are in over their head. some get respect. some none......and then there are some that get respect for reasons other than actual coaching ability and that is our Jason kidd. hes respected for his legacy as a player but he would have NEVER gotten this job or anywhere close to coaching at this level if he'd developed a bum knee in high school. hes here for other reasons besides what he can do in a huddle and its blatantly obvious to guys like me. guys who have played at high levels and for some pretty amazing coaches at some of those levels. kidd isn't even close.

My comments were about organizations, not coaches. Of course you need a certain minimum level of organizational competence, and I'd say they all have that. They all know how to set goals, budget, have a short- and long-term plan, manage to the plan, etc., etc. These are the basics. Business 101. I don't know whether you have the "necessaries" or not, but if you're not an MBA, I'm guessing no.

All clubs have at least this level of competence. It's the lack of variation past this point (and possibly caused by the sameness of approach necessiated by the givens of American business) that I'm talking about and that becomes subject to the vagaries of time and chance.