First Round Playoff Thread

[Newz]

Pippen without Jordan:

22/9/6 with a 54% TS%... 3 steals and a block per game. Lead the Bulls to a 55-27 record.

Do you even know who Scottie Pippen is?

[jakecronus8]

One season. What were his numbers with Houston and Portland? And Rodman was the ultimate role player but near non existent offensive threat.

[Newz]

One season. What were his numbers with Houston and Portland? And Rodman was the ultimate role player but near non existent offensive threat.

In Houston when he was past his prime and beat up by injury? Yeah... good point, I guess? But at 33 he put up 15/7/6.... and he was still making All-Defensive teams until he was about 35.

So what's your point? That he was still really good when he was old?

Oh no, RODMAN DIDN'T SCORE TEH PPGs! He's only the best statistical rebounder ever and a top 10 defensive player in the history of the NBA! HOW COULD JORDAN POSSIBLY WIN WITH THAT?!

[Wooderson]

When he won his first title Pippen wasn't even an all-star and Rodman was five years away from joining the Bulls. I don't know where you're getting the "two another all-stars" bit from unless you're counting guys like Robert Parish who was 62 years old when he was a Bull. If you're counting Horace Grant then you shouldn't include Rodman because they never played together. If you're counting BJ Armstrong then LOL. It would be like saying LeBron isn't that great because he couldn't win in Cleveland and he was surrounded by three all-stars, a DPOY and a top 10 player of all-time*.

Pip most certainly played like an all-star during the Bull's first title run in 1991.

22, 9, 6 on 56.4 TS% with superb D.

[Wooderson]

One season. What were his numbers with Houston and Portland? And Rodman was the ultimate role player but near non existent offensive threat.

What were Jordan's numbers with the Wizards? One must conclude that Pippen is responsible for the decrease in Jordan's production. Only logical answer right?

[InsideOut]

I think you're over rating no tip pip a tad. Good player but not so great when MJ wasn't around. Id certainly say Wade is a better player but pip was a better fit with Jordan. Also, the Bulls never had a #3 option even remotely close to Bosh.

You have no idea how very wrong you are. Not trying to be a jerk but you are embarrassingly wrong.

First off Rodman > Bosh. At the time Rodman was maybe the best defender AND definitely best rebounder in the game. Rodman earned NBA All-Defensive First Team honors seven times and was voted NBA Defensive Player of the Year twice. He also led the NBA in rebounds per game for a record seven consecutive years. You're telling me Bosh was the better player? Rodman impacted a game 10X what Bosh does.

Here are the facts...please read them and then tell me Pippen is being overrated here.

1). Named to the 50 best players of all time list.
2). He was a three time all-NBA FIRST TEAM selection.
3). He was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team 8 straight times.
4). We was a seven time all-star.

He did this stuff with AND without Jordan. Without MJ he finished 3rd in MVP voting. That first season without MJ the Pippen lead team only won 2 fewer games than the year before with MJ. If anything you are way underrating Pippen and Rodman.

[Ayt]

Jordan was unstoppable regardless of the cast. If you gave him a roster of even average talent he would have won rings right away. But he didn't even have that. There was no one on those early to mid 80's rosters worth a ****. Couple that with the fact he was going against historically great teams the likes of which we haven't seen in decades and I'm not docking Jordan points for not winning rings early on.

Agreed. Put prime Jordan on the bucks right now and we win a chip or at least come close. Dude was a killer and by far the GOAT. You only need to watch that YouTube video showing how crazy aggressive teams D'd up on him back in the day to realize just how soft the nba has become and how great he was.

I'm a huge Jordan fan and I think this is ludicrous.

[Ayt]

Even if Jordan's team were favored, he was still the better player and closed the door on Malone multiple times. Are you going to argue that Malone was better than Jordan? That's up to you. I argue that Michael Jordan would have found a way to the title one way or another. He was unstoppable.

MJ was unstoppable once he was surrounded by another 1st team all NBA and top 50 player ever, two another all-stars, the best defensive and rebounding player in the league and maybe the best coach ever. Take those guys away and he was just a scorer than couldn't win dink and was being called out for it.

I'll argue that with your bias toward titles that if MJ was drafted by the Clipper's and Malone was on the Bulls you'd be calling the Mailman the GOAT and MJ a rich man Dominique Wilkins. No player can win a title playing with crap...not even MJ.

When he won his first title Pippen wasn't even an all-star and Rodman was five years away from joining the Bulls. I don't know where you're getting the "two another all-stars" bit from unless you're counting guys like Robert Parish who was 62 years old when he was a Bull. If you're counting Horace Grant then you shouldn't include Rodman because they never played together. If you're counting BJ Armstrong then LOL. It would be like saying LeBron isn't that great because he couldn't win in Cleveland and he was surrounded by three all-stars, a DPOY and a top 10 player of all-time*.

It's not that Jordan won with nothing, but if you look at the Bulls from when he was drafted to what they became, it's pretty amazing. If you want to knock Jordan for anything knock him for allegedly resisting the moves like trading for Pippen (a MASSIVE risk - people don't realize the Bulls got killed by the media/public for that draft day trade when it happened) and him wanting a guy like Joe Wolf instead. Kind of the precursor to his GM days though

* (That's Carlos Boozer, Mo Williams, Antwan Jamison, Ben Wallace and Shaq for those of you playing along at home.)

Pippen was an All-Star the prior season and was 2nd Team All-D. He was a monster in the playoffs that first year:

21.6 ppg (.564TS%)
8.9 reb
5.8 ast
2.5 stl

And, of course, stellar D.

Horace was also very good by that time. In the playoffs he averaged 13-8-2 and had an exceptional TS% of .620. He also was a very good defender.

MJ was massive that season, but he didn't do it by himself.

[LeonSmith]

Pippen was an All-Star the prior season and was 2nd Team All-D. He was a monster in the playoffs that first year:

21.6 ppg (.564TS%)
8.9 reb
5.8 ast
2.5 stl

And, of course, stellar D.

Horace was also very good by that time. In the playoffs he averaged 13-8-2 and had an exceptional TS% of .620. He also was a very good defender.

MJ was massive that season, but he didn't do it by himself.

I never said Jordan won by himself, was trying to point out that saying Jordan played with all this help (and listing all the "all-star" teammates he played with, some who never played together during Jordan's time with the Bulls) is just as ridiculous as saying LeBron played with four all-stars in Cleveland and couldn't win with that.

Pippen, Grant, Rodman were great, but it's not like the Bulls were formed as some mega-powerhouse (something I see a lot of Heat fans say when trying to justify LeBron, Wade and Bosh teaming up) to get Jordan over the line. Early in Pippen's career he put up Evan Turner numbers, Grant was very good but was just a piece, not a star, and when Rodman joined the Bulls it was a massive risk after he almost single-handedly sabotaged the Spurs season. (Having said that Pippen did develop into a true star in his own right and the way the Bulls went from Jordan and the "Jordanaires" to the six-time champion Chicago Bulls was a thing of beauty.)

[InsideOut]

Pippen was an All-Star the prior season and was 2nd Team All-D. He was a monster in the playoffs that first year:

21.6 ppg (.564TS%)
8.9 reb
5.8 ast
2.5 stl

And, of course, stellar D.

Horace was also very good by that time. In the playoffs he averaged 13-8-2 and had an exceptional TS% of .620. He also was a very good defender.

MJ was massive that season, but he didn't do it by himself.

I never said Jordan won by himself, was trying to point out that saying Jordan played with all this help (and listing all the "all-star" teammates he played with, some who never played together during Jordan's time with the Bulls) is just as ridiculous as saying LeBron played with four all-stars in Cleveland and couldn't win with that.
Pippen, Grant, Rodman were great, but it's not like the Bulls were formed as some mega-powerhouse (something I see a lot of Heat fans say when trying to justify LeBron, Wade and Bosh teaming up) to get Jordan over the line. Early in Pippen's career he put up Evan Turner numbers, Grant was very good but was just a piece, not a star, and when Rodman joined the Bulls it was a massive risk after he almost single-handedly sabotaged the Spurs season. (Having said that Pippen did develop into a true star in his own right and the way the Bulls went from Jordan and the "Jordanaires" to the six-time champion Chicago Bulls was a thing of beauty.)

You are honestly comparing that Cleveland team with what MJ was playing with in Chicago. You think fat Shaq and Mo equal Pippen and Grant/Rodman? Seriously?

Pippen was an all-star in 92 and 93 and like the next 5 straight years. Grant played in the 94 all-star game and MJ played with him that season...but obviously not the entire season. Armstrong was also an all-star in 1994. Maybe you feel Grant and Armstrong were all-stars in 94 but that doesn't mean they were very good in 93? The point is MJ had a crazy good cast around him and you make it sound like they were a bunch of nobodies on par with what James played with in Cleveland. The Bulls won 55 games the year after MJ left. That's almost the same winning % that Boston had last year and only .026 behind what Miami had this season. My God, Chicago finished 3rd in the east without him and yet you act like it's ridiculous to think MJ had a lot of help? Name me a team you think plays at a 55 win pace this past season without their best player playing a single game? You can't... So yes, the Bulls were a mega powerhouse of a supporting cast. Maybe one of the best in history.

[coolhandluke121]

Pippen + Grant/Rodman is comparable to Wade/Bosh, although I must say that over the past 2 seasons Wade has not been nearly as valuable as Pippen was the entire time he was the Bulls. I don't think that's the supporting cast, though. They are the stars. The other guys are the supporting cast. I like to compare one team's stars to another team's stars, and then compare the supporting casts.

Guys like Kukoc, Cartwright, Armstrong, and Ron Harper were all also very good players who sacrificed numbers to be part of Chicago's dynasty. That gets overlooked. Cartwright was basically a 20/10 guy his rookie season. Harper was an all-star. Kukoc put up a tidy 19/7/5 in 1999 when he finally became Chicago's go-to guy at age 30 - it's not a stretch to think he could have made a few all-star games had he been more of a featured player in his physical prime.

Lebron has had nothing like that. You could take Pippen and Rodman off the 2nd 3-peat team and MJ would still have a better supporting cast than Lebron had with Cleveland. And there's no question in my mind that he always had a much better supporting cast than Lebron has in Miami now. Lebron still has to play with some absolute trash on a regular basis.

[jakecronus8]

I never said Chicago had a poor supporting cast for MJ, nor that Lebron's is better than MJ's, I just am tired of crybaby Lebron apologists acting as if his supporting casts were the Charlotte Bobcats. IMO, Jordan would have won titles with Cleveland's roster and would be a title lock with Miami's current roster. Lebron is close to unmatched when it comes to regular season statistics, but is not a finisher in either the reg season or playoffs. And I hate how people tell me its wrong to dislike him. Sorry but he's a great, albeit flawed player who is also a douchebag that thinks he's bigger than the game. Nothing will change this.

[Sigra]

1996-1998 Kukoc was better than anything LeBron had in Cleveland. And he was behind Pippen and Rodman. With that supporting cast LeBron wins between 70 and 80 games EVERY season.

[InsideOut]

I never said Chicago had a poor supporting cast for MJ, nor that Lebron's is better than MJ's, I just am tired of crybaby Lebron apologists acting as if his supporting casts were the Charlotte Bobcats. IMO, Jordan would have won titles with Cleveland's roster and would be a title lock with Miami's current roster. Lebron is close to unmatched when it comes to regular season statistics, but is not a finisher in either the reg season or playoffs. And I hate how people tell me its wrong to dislike him. Sorry but he's a great, albeit flawed player who is also a douchebag that thinks he's bigger than the game. Nothing will change this.

You're changing the subject as NOBODY here accused you saying you said Chicago had a poor supporting cast for MJ or that LeBron's is better than MJ's . This is what you said...

I think you're over rating no tip pip a tad. Good player but not so great when MJ wasn't around. Id certainly say Wade is a better player but pip was a better fit with Jordan. Also, the Bulls never had a #3 option even remotely close to Bosh.

You said a top 50 all time player, 8 time all D 1st team player (WITH AND WITHOUT MJ), 7 time all-star (WITH AND WITHOUT MJ), and 3 time 1st team all-NBA player (WITH AND WITHOUT MJ) was not so great without MJ and was being overrated. My response to you had nothing to do with James as I never even mentioned his name to you. What is going on here is crybaby LeBron haters are trying to downplay MJ's supporting cast because they somehow feel that makes LeBron look bad. The fact is MJ had a much better supporting cast than James but that doesn't change a thing as to how well these guys played.

Nobody here is saying James is better than MJ. What people are saying is that MJ had one of the best supporting casts in the history of the game. That doesn't change one thing about how good MJ was or have anything to do with how good James is today. They are saying James had a rotten supporting cast in Cleveland and that is a big reason he didn't win a title in Cleveland. If you think that is wrong than find me an NBA finals team in the past 30 years that had a worst supporting cast the James did in Cleveland. Give me just one team is all I ask.

No way if you switch MJ and James on that Cleveland finals team do they go from being swept by the Spurs to winning the title. A great player doesn't beat a great team in a 7 game series. Also, on what you are basing your opinion of Pippen and the rest of MJ's supporting cast?

[Newz]

I'm going to say Jordan wouldn't win a ring with Cleveland's supporting cast. Before the emergence of Pippen and the arrival of their better role players... his team pretty much was Cleveland. You know what they did? Won a bunch of gets and got smashed in the playoffs by great teams that had other great individual players on them.

I think James is a step below Jordan. But I do think James is by far the best perimeter player we have seen since Jordan played.

As stated earlier in this thread... that's a hard comparison since James game and approach is more similar to a guys like Magic as opposed to Jordan.

[jeremyd236]

I'm going to say Jordan wouldn't win a ring with Cleveland's supporting cast. Before the emergence of Pippen and the arrival of their better role players... his team pretty much was Cleveland. You know what they did? Won a bunch of gets and got smashed in the playoffs by great teams that had other great individual players on them.

I think James is a step below Jordan. But I do think James is by far the best perimeter player we have seen since Jordan played.

As stated earlier in this thread... that's a hard comparison since James game and approach is more similar to a guys like Magic as opposed to Jordan.

I think when it's all said and done, that's how people will look at it. Realistically, Lebron can still amass 6 MVP trophies and 3-5 titles total. Like I said earlier in the thread, MJ didn't have a title yet at Lebron's age.

[Licensed to Il]

[/quote] I think when it's all said and done, that's how people will look at it. Realistically, Lebron can still amass 6 MVP trophies and 3-5 titles total. Like I said earlier in the thread, MJ didn't have a title yet at Lebron's age.[/quote]

Exactly, LeBron still has a chance to completely alter the course of how he is ultimately remembered. MJ never sank to the low public approval rate that LeBron has, but he was very much called out in the press and disparaged by writers before his first title. At that point, there was nothing left anyone could say. I don't think the press particularly loves Kobe, but when you are the best player on a title team the way you are perceived changes.

In my mind, LeBron is the best player in the game today. But I don't think of him as a champion, nor do I include him on my list of greatest of all time. That is right there for him, but he needs a title for the process to start. There is still plenty of time. But I will say he needs to start caring less about "his global brand" and focusing more on his skills. If the Heat lose to the Thunder in the finals, all LeBron's supporters will point out how much better Durant's supporting cast is. But the simple fact is that Durant is more skilled than LeBron (can shoot from anywhere and doesn't shrink in the 4rth). That comes from practice and confidence. That's my main frustration with LeBron. No one has ever been given better physical skills (size of Malone, speed of Pippen). I love that he has a handle and court vision (that is all him). But that guy could already have a title or two if he worked harder on a post up game and jumper. And that is not to imply he is bad at basketball. He just doesn't get how fully committed you have to be. He is so close. This could even be the summer it all changes. Or, the Heat could lose tonight and the internet will explode.

[europa]

Like I said earlier in the thread, MJ didn't have a title yet at Lebron's age.

I loathe the Jordan-LeBron comparisons but with regard to this statement it should be pointed out that comparing the two's accomplishments at the same age doesn't mean much since LeBron entered the NBA at age 18 whereas Jordan was 21. LeBron is in his ninth NBA season. When Jordan was in his ninth season he was winning his third straight NBA title.

[Newz]

I think LeBron works as hard or harder than anyone else in the sport. Perhaps not Kobe... But LeBron's game has improved big time in a lot of areas. He's never going to be a lights out outside shooter like Durant. But Durant will never be the distributor or defender that LeBron is.

LeBron needs to do what Jordan did, actually. Move his game down toward the block (like he did last game) and just dominate. In Cleveland and at times in Miami he doesn't have the option to do that. When he has to go into 'one man team' mode, he has to operate from the top of the key a lot.

We'll see. If Miami wins tonight I'm picking OKC in five. But it has nothing to do with how I view James as a player. I just think OKCs overall team is absolutely insane.

[Nebula1]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULQXas2DS7s[/youtube]

Game 7 coming up. I expect another big game from James. Probably see the triple double tonight since he'll likely see more double teams.