Why isn't John Hammond fired?

[ReasonablySober]

It's okay to acknowledge that, you guys.

It is a good record. But it isn't a great record. There have been plenty of other great mid-round draft picks by other organizations. The Bucks aren't alone in finding some nice players in the 14-30 range.

Alright, show me. Who are you taking over the bucks in that mid range level over the last five years? I change my mind when a good argument is made, so let's hear yours.

[Max Green]

I know for a fact John Hammond was against the Tobias trade. It was a mandate from on high. I've said it before and I'll say it again: That's on Kohl and cronies. That is not on Hammond.

How do you know for a fact Hammond was against the Tobias trade? He's the one who pulled the Trigger. I'm pretty sure Kohl didn't call up Hennigan in Orlando asking for JJ Redick. He traded Tobias because he the Coaching staff undersold how good he really was, and that he thought he was getting Josh Smith to go a long with Redick.

I know because in conversations with a friend and a fellow Bucks fan, who happens to work in the Media and has direct access to John Hammond and the locker room, has asserted to me in more than one conversation: John Hammond did not want to include Tobias in the Redick deal. It was Kohl and cronies who gave the stamp because they wanted to get it done. The Josh Smith thing was completely blown out of proportion. Their main target was JJ Redick.

Sorry dude, I'm not buying it. Kohl might've put pressure on him to get better at the deadline, but Hammond made that trade, his fingerprints are all over it. It wasn't his first time making a short sighted win-now trade at the deadline.

We minutes away from getting Josh Smith until Danny Ferry pulled a dick move and demanded more from us at the last second, Hammond didn't budge and Ferry killed the deal.

[paulpressey25]

The GM ultimately is the guy who gets the credit or the blame depending on how the player develops. How is Hammond any different?

Because a component of the Hammond as GM debate is always held under the guise of "You can't judge him on anything as GM because Herb Kohl and cronies meddle"

Well, if we are using that standard, and are going to assign blame for bad moves to Kohl, Steinmiller, Babcock, etc, then I think you have to in turn give a guy like Babcock and the foreign scout credit for some of these other moves.

Unless you want to put it all out there on Hammond as GM. In which case, he's been such a miserable overall failure that anything positive he's done in the draft is irrelevant.

[Wooderson]

I can very easily separate that. I'm not sure why others aren't. He's been terrible in virtually every other capacity as a GM, or at least isn't doing a good enough job influencing those above him. But from a strick, "You have pick number 15, now pick the best player available" perspective, he's been ridiculously good. Of course he's getting help, but that's his pick at the end of the day.

I'd say it's still premature to call him ridiculously good. For all we know none of Henson/Harris/Giannis could end up being above average starters. They are definitely very good assets and therefore it's fair to call him a good drafter at worst, but still too early to drop heaps of praise.

[Kerb Hohl]

Oddly enough, I've relented on my Hammond hating over the hears. The stench of Kohl's meddling is pretty obvious at this point.

All of that said, there have been a ton of excuses. Kohl wanted this guy. Skiles wanted that guy (by the way, John Hammond hired Skiles knowing who he was). At some point if Hammond had an ounce of ability he'd have shown it to us regardless of that crap. Overstep them. Just once. Convince them of their stupidity.

[andonewheel]

I won't discount that Hammond is better than average at drafting.

However, every trade and signing has been garbage. Literally every one. Either Hammond has ZERO control or he is terrible at convincing Herb anything if you think he has a brain.

How smart of a drafter can Hammond be? I mean, I'm not completely taking credit away from the picks but how can somebody be so savvy at mining mid 1st talent and be SO INCREDIBLY STUPID on every other move? Either Herb is running 100% of the show or Hammond has gotten some luck in drafting. I can't believe a guy would be an A drafter and an F team evaluator. That's like me being a deans list student in 3rd semester calculus and getting an F in 1st semester physics.

Many of these things can be true at the same time- Hammond is an above average drafter, Hammond has gotten lucky in his drafting to a degree, and Hammond is terrible at closing deals with free agents and terrible at negotiating trades with other teams.

I don't find his free agent record to be that shocking when you take a look at the guys we courted that passed on us. NOBODY wants to come play for the Bucks. Even if he was the best GM in the league, nobody is chomping at the bit to come here sadly.

[trwi7]

It's okay to acknowledge that, you guys.

It is a good record. But it isn't a great record. There have been plenty of other great mid-round draft picks by other organizations. The Bucks aren't alone in finding some nice players in the 14-30 range.

Alright, show me. Who are you taking over the bucks in that mid range level over the last five years? I change my mind when a good argument is made, so let's hear yours.

Since 2008 the Pacers have gotten Hibbert with the 17th pick, George with the 10th pick and traded the 15th pick (Kawhi Leonard) to the Spurs for George Hill.

[SkilesTheLimit]

I spoke with my boss' boyfriend tonight, he's on hammonds' staff.

The win now mandate is all Kohl. Hammonds wants the young guys to play and Larry Drew is being stubborn and refusing to listen to what he's being told. He truly is the tank commander. That being said Kohl wants to make the playoffs still. Like this season still... They are going to wait until around the allstar break before making a move and deciding whether or not to go for it so i wouldnt worry about Asik just yet.. If they're within sniffing distance of the 8th seed though don't be shocked to see a young guy moved. Apparently last season the Hawks pulled out of the Smith trade literally 2 mins before the deadline bc they wanted our pick and we wanted to give them Henson. We pulled the Tobias trade which all parties, kohl and hammond both, believed would put them in the playoffs.

Kohl is the problem. Larry Drew is clueless which turns out to benefit us. Hammonds has his job bc he knows the young guys are the answer and all this win now **** keeps failing.

By the way, they know all about SaveOurBucks.com

They all know about SaveOurBucks.com except no one has the stones to tell Kohl about it. He wouldn't know anything about it because his idea of "social media" is eating near people at Ma Fischers with his Journal-Sentinel in hand.

[ReasonablySober]

If you're going to diminish what Hammond has done in the draft and ascribe all the credit to someone else, I'm going to do the same with the free agency and trade moves that bombed. And then we're left with a GM that really hasn't been good or bad, he's just signing off on what everyone else has told him to do. And that may be the case. But then Hammond wouldn't be the problem and this thread is crap.

[bizarro]

How do you know for a fact Hammond was against the Tobias trade? He's the one who pulled the Trigger. I'm pretty sure Kohl didn't call up Hennigan in Orlando asking for JJ Redick. He traded Tobias because he the Coaching staff undersold how good he really was, and that he thought he was getting Josh Smith to go a long with Redick.

I know because in conversations with a friend and a fellow Bucks fan, who happens to work in the Media and has direct access to John Hammond and the locker room, has asserted to me in more than one conversation: John Hammond did not want to include Tobias in the Redick deal. It was Kohl and cronies who gave the stamp because they wanted to get it done. The Josh Smith thing was completely blown out of proportion. Their main target was JJ Redick.

Sorry dude, I'm not buying it. Kohl might've put pressure on him to get better at the deadline, but Hammond made that trade, his fingerprints are all over it. It wasn't his first time making a short sighted win-now trade at the deadline.

We minutes away from getting Josh Smith until Danny Ferry pulled a dick move and demanded more from us at the last second, Hammond didn't budge and Ferry killed the deal.

That's fine. You're entitled to your beliefs, obviously. I'll stand where I stand on this. I know it wasn't the first time making a win-now short-sighted trade...BUT, it was the first time we had done it with such a highly touted prospect. Hammond really liked Tobias. And, this nonsense about Henson for Smith??!! Please.

[ReasonablySober]

It is a good record. But it isn't a great record. There have been plenty of other great mid-round draft picks by other organizations. The Bucks aren't alone in finding some nice players in the 14-30 range.

Alright, show me. Who are you taking over the bucks in that mid range level over the last five years? I change my mind when a good argument is made, so let's hear yours.

Since 2008 the Pacers have gotten Hibbert with the 17th pick, George with the 10th pick and traded the 15th pick (Kawhi Leonard) to the Spurs for George Hill.

Great. Anyone else? #2 would still be pretty awesome. So would #5. Do we have five more teams that did a better job?

[Turd Ferguson]

My guess is that Hammond was actually against the Tobias trade, which was probably put forth by someone else in the FO and Hammond was too weak to kill it. In the end, he was proven right, and Kohl felt bad and thought Hammond might not be so bad after all.

I spoke to Hammond at an event in the BC before preseason started, when he and Paschke were in Club Cambria to provide a preview for the 2013-2014 season, and to take questions from maybe 15-20 fans in attendance. I was able to speak candidly with him for 10-15 minutes after I got a couple questions in (one about Giannis PT for the upcoming season, and one about his talent evaluation process pre-draft, since he's drafted fairly well with respect to position these last few years) for he and Paschke to take.

My impression was this: he's clearly realized his mistake in the Tobias fiasco, and his response was one of genuine remorse and guilt, rather than contempt or anger for Kohl or some other entity forcing him to make any particular move. To me, this indicates that he personally shoulders the blame for that move, and I don't necessarily think he's a guy with the emotional intelligence to respond in such a way that would direct the blame to himself in an attempt to protect Kohl for a move that Hammond himself ultimately carried out.

Now, when we transitioned into the idea of a "rebuild", he showed he truly understands the reality facing this franchise, and that the only realistic shot we have at a game-changing talent is through the draft. I was surprised to hear him speak this way, partly because he was actually really enthusiastic at this point in our conversation. One point I'd like to emphasize here is that when we began discussing tanking, drafting, and building through the draft, his words were "See, the only people who really "get it" are young people." At this point, I just stopped talking and let him continue this train of thought...It was really an awesome conversation. Really nice guy, and he took the time to answer every one of my questions, even some that I thought he would never answer while working in Milwaukee.

[blazza18]

This thread is really depressing. I wish I knew the answer.

[Wooderson]

It's okay to acknowledge that, you guys.

It is a good record. But it isn't a great record. There have been plenty of other great mid-round draft picks by other organizations. The Bucks aren't alone in finding some nice players in the 14-30 range.

Alright, show me. Who are you taking over the bucks in that mid range level over the last five years? I change my mind when a good argument is made, so let's hear yours.

First two I could think of. Indy/Philly

Indy:
2008: #17- Hibbert
2010: #10- Paul George
#40- Stephenson
2011: #15- George Hill (from Kawhi trade)
2012: #26- Plumlee

2009: #17- Holiday
2010: No pick
2011: #16- Vucevic
2012: #15- Harkless
2013: #11- Carter-Williams

There's probably more. I'll do some digging.

[Kerb Hohl]

How does this sound?

"I really like Tobias Harris. So much so that I'm going to trade down to get him."

"I think Tobias can be an efficient scorer in this league. I covet him in the draft."

"I like Drew Gooden. I like Monta Ellis. I drafted Brandon Jennings."

If the guy understands basketball that well to know what Tobias would bring to the table, he wouldn't bring in the complete opposite in several other moves/picks.

I realize Billy Beane has more autonomy, but you don't see him bringing in Yuni Betancourt or even Mark Trumbo. He sticks to his guns in coveting OBP, slugging, for a while advanced defensive stats, and split stats. It's clear that he had a mindset and can apply it. I'm not sure that Hammond's mindset can be proven with the swath of moves he's made.

[stellation]

CLASSIC JENNINGS GIF



Come on, Mike, you gotta stretch for that one.

I've always loved that, I really feel for the person in the upper bowl that ball crashed into- it was really moving.

[paulpressey25]

Alright, show me. Who are you taking over the bucks in that mid range level over the last five years? I change my mind when a good argument is made, so let's hear yours.

I'd have to do the research, but I don't think any other teams have had six consecutive first round picks between #8 and #15 like the Bucks have. Hence, part of the reason Hammond may look good here is because no one else is drafting in that range with the frequency he is, so we don't have anyone to compare him to.

For example, Denver has gotten Lawson and Faried but because of their record and trades, they haven't had as many picks as the Bucks. Indiana certainly has cleaned up with Paul George, Hibbert, etc. Then you have the Spurs with Kawhi, Manu, Parker, George Hill, etc. Then Philly as Wooderson noted.

[SkilesTheLimit]

This thread is really depressing. I wish I knew the answer.

This would be the perfect time for the real Larry Harris (who PP says lurks/posts on this board from time to time) to shed some insight. He can do so under a pseudonym to protect his identity, I don't care. He spent decades in this organization in multiple capacities and would be able to tell so many stories about the inner workings of Kohl, cronies, etc. that it would make our heads spin.

[stellation]

This thread is really depressing. I wish I knew the answer.

I dunno, I find it kind of encouraging. I can have some pretty crazy moments of incompetence in my job, I like the idea that you can do that and not get fired.

[ReasonablySober]

Kerb, you're still not getting it. I'm talking about drafting. I openly admit he's terrible at virtually everything else.

And I'd rather have what Milwaukee has done to what Philly has done. MCW doesn't count. Hinkie is new this year.