Trading Redd Is Not The Way

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

Europa, why are you afraid to answer the question? What salary per year would Redd have to earn before his contract is a problem? I've asked you a few times, and you've never offered an answer. Is that because no mere number can contain your love for Michael Redd? If he made $20 million would you view his contract as a problem?

And I think you understand the Mo cap hold situation well enough that you are being intentionally misleading, instead of just confused. But maybe you're just confused I guess.

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

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And I'm sure he has thought the very same thing every day this season..probably last season also.

That's bull ****. If Redd cared more about winning than he does about money, he would shoot 3/4 court shots when the opportunity arises. I'm sure he's happy with the choice he made.

[europa]

Europa, why are you afraid to answer the question?

I'm not afraid of answering the question. You simply seem intent on ignoring the primary issues that are hampering this team from a salary cap perspective while focusing entirely on what Redd is making. I've talked about what I believe Redd is worth. I've talked about the fact he is overpaid. None of that changes the primary point that when it comes to salary issues on this team the fact the Bucks are shelling out $26M for so much dead weight is a very serious problem and in my opinion a far more serious problem than what Redd - the only player anywhere close to being an All-Star on this team - is making.

And I think you understand the Mo cap hold situation well enough that you are being intentionally misleading, instead of just confused. But maybe you're just confused I guess.

I'm doing none of the above. The Bucks could have renounced Mo and made a run at the two free agents I mentioned. That is a fact. What is also quite clear is that Kohl and his cronies had it in their minds they were going to pay Mo a lot of money last summer - much more than they needed to. That is also a fact. No confusion there nor am I being misleading.

[WRau1]

Europa, why are you afraid to answer the question? What salary per year would Redd have to earn before his contract is a problem? I've asked you a few times, and you've never offered an answer. Is that because no mere number can contain your love for Michael Redd? If he made $20 million would you view his contract as a problem?

And I think you understand the Mo cap hold situation well enough that you are being intentionally misleading, instead of just confused. But maybe you're just confused I guess.

Haha, how can you ask someone to answer a question when you NEVER answer other ppls? I'm still waiting on my answer for you name 49 other players better then Redd...

As for the Cavs, the only position we have the advantage, is PG. Maybe. You can make the case for Snow being a better fit for either team.

Lakers is the same deal.

[carmelbrownqueen]

Because the core of Redd/Yi/Bogut is going to compete with Allen/Pierce/Garnett if we just get a better bench? Or because 32 year old Redd/Yi/Bogut will one day be able to dominate Dwight Howard/Lewis?

Many around the league wondered if a 30 year old Paul Pierce and a 32 year old Ray Allen could help a team compete against some of the stars at their position in the league.. However the COMBINATION of Allen, Pierce, and KG is dominating right now.

IF Yi keeps developing as expected and Redd keeps working on his ability to work successfully with a big man like Yi, then I think we will be able to compete as long as we have the right pieces to support them.

I would like to see the Bucks hold onto guys like Redd, Bogut, Yi, Sessions (if he can translate his game to the NBA successfully).. etc. (Maybe Mo and Desmond or a Desmond like player) to see what we can do if those guys have the right guys playing with them.. bu t it's going to take time, and nothing is instanteous in this league.

[europa]

I would like to see the Bucks hold onto guys like Redd, Bogut, Yi, Sessions (if he can translate his game to the NBA successfully)

I was talking to a friend of mine about Sessions the other day. I told him that it speaks volumes about how bad this team is that I'm actually just as excited about seeing what Sessions can do as I am about how good Yi might be and that I think a player who has spent the entire season in the D League might be as close to an "untouchable" on this team as anybody else.

[carmelbrownqueen]

If you accept max money, you accept the responsibility of putting a team on your back. I sure hope nobody's wasting time feeling sorry for Michael Redd.

average salaries going forward

Michael Redd - $17 million

Rip Hamilton - $11 million
Kevin Martin - $10 million
Manu Ginobili - $10 million
Mike Miller - $9.5 million
Ben Gordon - ???

Redd makes 50% more money than his peers. He isn't paid to be a scorer, because the market rates for scorers is clearly around $10-11 million a year. He's paid to be a Tim Duncan/Kobe Bryant/Lebron James type guy.
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Lebron got to the finals by himself. Kobe got to the playoffs with just Odom, and he certainly could have done the same with Mo and Bogut.

Has the team done a poor job putting good players around Redd? Yes. But Redd's salary is a HUGE part of the problem. If Michael Redd made the $10 million that he's worth, we would have had an extra $5 million in cap space last summer, and could have picked up Gerald Wallace. Easily.

I don't want to hear about how it "isn't" Redd's salary that prevents players from being picked up. Every player who accepts more than they're worth prevents the team from reaching the average overall talent level of the league.

It is comical to hear fans say how we could "easily have gotten this or that player" when in reality fans aren't factoring in that we agressively tried to grab him from his current team. Let's get this straight.. Gerald Wallace did not under any circumstances want to leave his team. He said even before the end of the season that he wanted to return to the Bobcats. It was always his desire to return. Almost every team in the league pursued him, and he turned them down. So Redd making 5 million more than some of us want him to make didn't keep him off the team. He wasn't going to come here even if Michael Redd was making $3 million per season.

[msiris]

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Many around the league wondered if a 30 year old Paul Pierce and a 32 year old Ray Allen could help a team compete against some of the stars at their position in the league.. However the COMBINATION of Allen, Pierce, and KG is dominating right now.

IF Yi keeps developing as expected and Redd keeps working on his ability to work successfully with a big man like Yi, then I think we will be able to compete as long as we have the right pieces to support them.

I would like to see the Bucks hold onto guys like Redd, Bogut, Yi, Sessions (if he can translate his game to the NBA successfully).. etc. (Maybe Mo and Desmond or a Desmond like player) to see what we can do if those guys have the right guys playing with them.. bu t it's going to take time, and nothing is instanteous in this league.

None of our players will ever be able to match the big three of Boston. How much time do you need to see that this team will never reach even .500. I would only trade Redd if we could get rid either Simmons or Gadz with him.

[BigAlHorfordROY]

For the CV for Calderon comment you have to be crazy. I think the PR nightmare is on the Raptors side not ours. Plus with TJ Ford and the uncertainty there you have to keep Calderon.

In response to not trading Redd???? He is basically one of the few players that have any market value albeit small because of his max deal.

As for Mo Williams the last thing the Hawks need is a shoot first point guard that is grossly overpaid.

Listen I am a former Bucks ticket holder and moved to Atlanta a while ago. I keep a close eye on the Bucks and am a lifelong fan. It is unfortunate to see all of this happen, but face reality when I say it is time to blow this thing up. I have league pass and watch games from time to time. It is obvious that the wheels have fallen off and time to move on. I would love to see Kohl step down and sell the team, but pains me to know that would put the future of the team in question. Not too many people would take a loss year after year to keep the team in there home state. Good Luck Bucks Fans.

[Newz]

Saying that LeBron and Kobes supporting cast is worse than Redd's is just absolutely ridiculous. You hate Michael Redd so much that you are just saying foolish things to try and support your argument.

Z > Bogut
Gooden/Varaejo >>> Yi/CV
Hughes/Pavlovic > Mason/Simmons
Snow/Jones > Bel/Iveyl
Gibson < Mo

and

Bynum > Bogut
Mihm/Brown = Ruffin/Voshkuhl
Odom/Radmonavic/Turiaf >>>>> Yi, CV, Gadzuric
Walton/Ariza >>> Simmons/Mason
Farmar/Crittenton/Vujacic >>>>> Bell, Ivey
Fisher < Mo

Both LeBron and Kobe are clearly superior players to Redd... But their support casts are a ton better.

And the argument that Redd holds us back from getting him a good supporting cast? It's absurd. Okay, if Redd only made 10 million (Which is underpaid for him) then yeah, we maybe could have got Gerald Wallace.

Let's say Bobby Simmons made the minimum salary possible like he was worth, then we could have afford another max salary player.

Let's say Gadzuric made the minimum salary possible like he is worth as a 3rd string center... We would have been in the same boat to try and get Wallace.

And why is it Redd's fault we signed Mason, who turned out to be useless for 5 mil a year? Or is it his fault we gave Charlie Bell a longterm deal and he turned into the worst player in basketball?

The bottom line is that we are paying Simmons to be our version of Gerald Wallace, THE GUY MAKES 10 MILLION A YEAR AND HE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE IN THE NBA THE WAY HE IS PLAYING!

He pay Gadzuric like one of the best back-up C's in the NBA and he is getting outplayed by guys like Jake Voshkuhl and Brian Skinner.

We paid Mason 5 mil a year to be a solid player and he does nothing well, he doesn't even provide highlight reel dunks anymore... The guy can't even shoot a FT.

We gave Bell his longterm deal and he is performing like the worst player in basketball.

Is Redd overpaid? Yeah, I think he's worth 12-13 (average salary) mil per year rather than 15 (average salary)... But that is the least of our problems. The contracts of Simmons, Bell, Gadzuric and Mason are what are holding this team back right now... That is 26 million dollars wasted... We pay those guys 26 million dollars, I would rather pay Michael Redd 26 million per year than have those 4 guys on my team combined

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

WRau, I never said that Redd was the 50th best player in the NBA; I said that he was top-50. The reason I chose 50 is pretty arbitrary, and was just a response to people calling Redd top 30 or top 35 or whatever.

He's probably in the top 35-40 currently in terms of skill level, but his value is lower than that because he's paid 50% more than he's worth, and his age doesn't enhance his value. There is a misconception that because he's the best player on our team, and there are 30 teams, that makes him top-30, ignoring of course that some teams have 3 players who are better than Redd.

CBQ, it is nearly factual that we could have signed Wallace, because every player in the NBA signs wherever they get offered the most money. Chapter29 tried arguing this last night, but was unable to name any players who turned down higher valued contracts (unless they are in the final year or two of their career, chasing a ring). Can you do better?

[carmelbrownqueen]

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That's bull ****. If Redd cared more about winning than he does about money, he would shoot 3/4 court shots when the opportunity arises. I'm sure he's happy with the choice he made.

No what's bull**** is that overractive fans expect him to produce wins when he isn't getting anything consistently from anyone else to help him do it.

We're expecting miracles out of him just because he makes millions. Was Paul Pierce able to get his teams to the playoffs prior to the Allen and KG trades every year? What was Boston's record the past couple of years with all that "young talent" and no consistent help around him? What about Ray Allen while on the Sonics? Was his team getting to the playoffs every year with all that talent around him while he was in Seattle? Better yet, what about KG? He's a tremendous player.. so obviously his teams were in the playoffs every year he was in Minny right? They were able to get out the first round of the playoffs every year right?

Based on their individual talent and their big paychecks all of these guys should have been in the playoffs every year of their careers, and all of them should have been close to winning a tittle based on the asinine logic on this board!!!!!

That is not how it works. If you want your multimillion dollar players to be successful, then you have to find the right mix of players to put around them to get them there.. We have never ever had that mix around Michael Redd. If we want to make this team successful, then we have to get it. Yi is the most promisng of the players on the roster.. but we need changes in several others to help Redd and Yi be successful. It's time to stop lumping everything on Redd's shoulders and be realistic.

[europa]

It's time to stop lumping everything on Redd's shoulders and be realistic.

No, it's clearly time to trade Redd for crap and expirings. Would it just kill you to keep up, sis? Sheesh.

[carmelbrownqueen]

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I was talking to a friend of mine about Sessions the other day. I told him that it speaks volumes about how bad this team is that I'm actually just as excited about seeing what Sessions can do as I am about how good Yi might be and that I think a player who has spent the entire season in the D League might be as close to an "untouchable" on this team as anybody else.

Absolutely. I'm very curious to see what he can do once he comes to the NBA. I'm thinking if Bell doesn't get it together that maybe we can roll with him as the primary backup.. and too me that's pretty sad considering the kid hasn't played one single solitary minute in the NBA yet.

[WRau1]

Wasn't Ray Allen going to take less money to come here if we lost Redd? Eric Dampier also turned down more money from ATL.

Also, SAR turned us down as well. Didn't Shaq turn down more money to play in LA?

[msiris]

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No, it's clearly time to trade Redd for crap and expirings. Would it just kill you to keep up, sis? Sheesh.

But what are we going to do? Nobody wants Simmons or Gadz or even Bell. So in another words we are stuck with this team? Do you really want too watch this team?

[paulpressey25]

Adamcz....we couldn't have gotten Wallace unless we massively overpaid him to the tune of $80mm and no one wanted that. It was thought at the start of FA that Wallace would get maybe $45 to $50.....but he ended up with $57mm plus I thought another $8-$10mm in incentives.....

And guys...don't knock the Dez signing....that's not our problem. As most of you should be able see after the last few games, Desmond was maybe our best defensive player....or at least the only guy capable of rotating on defense.

Where we made the mistake with Redd IMO was that maybe we should have offered that money to Ray Allen since he reportedly would have signed here (5-years/$80 million)

[LISTEN2JAZZ]

I didn't know about Dampier turning down a larger contract. Can anyone confirm that a larger contract was actually offered to him than the one he accepted?

Ray Allen doesn't count because it's purely theoretical.

SAR I don't believe is a true story. Simmons accepted first, so our offer to SAR was withdrawn.

[carmelbrownqueen]

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None of our players will ever be able to match the big three of Boston. How much time do you need to see that this team will never reach even .500. I would only trade Redd if we could get rid either Simmons or Gadz with him.

Our team will never reach .500?? Wow, that says alot. Again, my point isn't that our team is perfect and should stay the same. I definitely don't think that. I was saying even before the draft that we needed a big body like a Skinner or someone to help CV or Yi, that we needed an athletic small forward.. blah blah blah..

Right now we don't have productive players to back up Redd, Mo, or Yi.. without that no we can't get to .500. That has been my entire point. Unless Harris or whoever can find someone to gift us a couple of players for Gadzuric, Simmons, Bell, and CV.. then we won't get to 41 wins. We need help! I just disagree with who we need to move at the moment. Redd shouldn't be our object of scorn at the moment. And I just can't understand the perspective that guys on this board aren't daily making up trade scenerios that involve moving CV, Simmons, Bell, Gadzuric for a wad of chewing gum... because they hurt us more than anyone else.

[europa]

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But what are we going to do? Nobody wants Simmons or Gadz or even Bell. So in another words we are stuck with this team? Do you really want too watch this team?

Nope. But I also don't want to watch a team that panics and deals the only standout player it has. As frustrated as I can get with Redd sometimes - and yes he frustrates me too - I get considerably more frustrating watching so much garbage play alongside him game after game. Like I said, I'm fine with trading Redd for the right deal. I'd just hate to see Kohl panic and deal Redd in the kind of move so many here are endorsing.

Absolutely. I'm very curious to see what he can do once he comes to the NBA. I'm thinking if Bell doesn't get it together that maybe we can roll with him as the primary backup.. and too me that's pretty sad considering the kid hasn't played one single solitary minute in the NBA yet.

I think the time has come to bring him up and work him into the mix. I'm not sure I see any downside. It's not like he could be any worse than Bell has been. Like I said in another thread a few days ago, I don't think it's humanly possible for a PG to be any worse than Bell has been.