First Round Playoff Thread

LUKE23 · Post #441 » by **LUKE23** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:14 pm

Newz wrote:It's easy to believe what you believe when you ignore most of the points I'm making.

It's okay, I've had this argument before and I've seen the same responses. Logic basically goes out the window.

You do realize that the supporting cast argument probably holds some water, but that the LeBron will to win point also holds water right? There is nobody that firmly follows the NBA that can sit here and tell me with a straight face that LeBron has as strong of a will to win as many of the all-time great stars. Hell, not even just Jordan, say Bird, among others. If you disagree with that, based on what we've seen, we'll always disagree. But both arguments (supporting cast, mentality) are correct. Some people just blatantly ignore the latter just because it isn't measurable, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It is what it is.

Badgerlander · Post #442 » by **Badgerlander** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:15 pm

jerrod wrote:i actually think several of the awards should be unanimous. 6th man ...

Yeah but the Bucks not making the playoffs means Dunleavy won't get it so they'll probably give it to Harden to try to make him feel better for not kicking MWP out of the league

Newz · Post #443 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:20 pm

I've seen a lot of instances of LeBron dominating in the playoffs, playing great when games are on the line, etc.

The supporting cast argument is 100% correct, it isn't subjective at all. The players on the other guys teams are/were A LOT better.

LUKE23 · Post #444 » by **LUKE23** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:21 pm

Again, if you disagree with LeBron and the mentality thing (vs. many other greats), we'll just agree to disagree.

jerrod · Post #445 » by **jerrod** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:29 pm

i agree kobe is mentally several levels above lebron. but it needs to be said that while lebron fell apart in the finals, he was great in the 2 series before that.

Aaron It Out · Post #446 » by **Aaron It Out** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:30 pm

Newz wrote:I've seen a lot of instances of LeBron dominating in the playoffs, playing great when games are on the line, etc.

The supporting cast argument is 100% correct, it isn't subjective at all. The players on the other guys teams are/were A LOT better.

I think LeBron single handedly, and I mean LITERALLY single handedly beating the Pistons in the ECF in his second year is one of his most overlooked accomplishments of his career. I understand the man has disappeared down the stretch in some series, but he's done a lot of good also.

EDIT: Sorry, it wasn't his second year. 2007. Cleveland lost to Detroit in 2005 in the ECF.

Newz · Post #447 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:30 pm

Aaron It Out wrote:
Newz wrote:I've seen a lot of instances of LeBron dominating in the playoffs, playing great when games are on the line, etc.

The supporting cast argument is 100% correct, it isn't subjective at all. The players on the other guys teams are/were A LOT better.

I think LeBron single handedly, and I mean LITERALLY single handedly beating the Pistons in the ECF in his second year is one of his most overlooked accomplishments of his career. I understand the man has disappeared down the stretch in some series, but he's done a lot of good also.

One of, if not the best performance, in playoff history.

REDDzone · Post #448 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 2, 2012 3:31 pm

Not trying to hate on LeBron, I do agree he is the best player on earth. But I also agree that he does have mental issues that do hold him back in some instances.

Just an outsider's take, but I don't really see LeBron as having the urgency to win championships that some guys have. Not sure of the reason, there is no way he gets to where he is today without being a competitor. Perhaps he is just extremely confident in himself, that if he keeps doing his thing the titles will come? Not sure. But to me it doesn't seem like he cares that much at the moment. I mean we have instances where he publicly declares himself a winner (lol). Then we hear stories of him and his entourage, needing someone to serve as a liaison between himself and normal people (double lol), and all this stuff that shows this sort of delusion of grandeur. Perhaps he doesn't see titles as the key to cementing his legacy? Again, perhaps he is just confident that the titles will be there for the taking. Maybe he just doesn't let it get to him like others do? Whatever the case is with LeBron, whether you like his mental makeup or dislike it, it certainly seems to be very different than the archetype of the "all time great", at least as I traditionally see them.

Badgerlander · Post #449 » by **Badgerlander** » Wed May 2, 2012 4:37 pm

Newz wrote:
Aaron It Out wrote:
Newz wrote:I've seen a lot of instances of LeBron dominating in the playoffs, playing great when games are on the line, etc.

The supporting cast argument is 100% correct, it isn't subjective at all. The players on the other guys teams are/were A LOT better.

I think LeBron single handedly, and I mean LITERALLY single handedly beating the Pistons in the ECF in his second year is one of his most overlooked accomplishments of his career. I understand the man has disappeared down the stretch in some series, but he's done a lot of good also.

One of, if not the best performance, in playoff history.

http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/moments/60moments.html

not even top 60

jeremyd236 · Post #450 » by **jeremyd236** » Wed May 2, 2012 4:39 pm

Where's the "Lebron's not a winner" thread from a year ago? I was the only one saying Lebron was not a winner in terms of mentality and killer instinct and nobody agreed with me. How can anyone say with a straight face that he's got the winner's mentality of some of the game's greatest? Is it his 25% FG% in the fourth quarter of last year's finals (or whatever it is) what convinces you?

coolhandluke121 · Post #451 » by **coolhandluke121** » Wed May 2, 2012 4:51 pm

Newz wrote:I've seen a lot of instances of LeBron dominating in the playoffs, playing great when games are on the line, etc.

The supporting cast argument is 100% correct, it isn't subjective at all. The players on the other guys teams are/were A LOT better.

I agree with you completely. Kobe did nothing but stand outside chucking up 3's against the Celtics in 2008, and the Lakers never had a chance. That constitutes an incredible will-to-win? In that case, Tim Thomas is one of the hungriest competitors ever.

Kobe's true will is to win individual glory. When that goal conflicts with the goal of winning, he generally chooses individual glory. For proof, see his ball-hogging at the end of games, his persistent and disgusting reluctance to defer to far more efficient offensive players like Shaq, Pau, and Bynum, his frequent shots attempts against double- and triple-teams while the Lakers got spanked by the Pistons in 2004, and his well-documented refusal to stick to his defensive assignments instead of cheating to go for steals.

ETA: And the infamous games where he refuses to score, just to make a point about how important he is to the Lakers' offense.

REDDzone · Post #452 » by **REDDzone** » Wed May 2, 2012 4:53 pm

If I disliked Kobe for any reason, it would def be for his pouting against the Suns in the first round 5-6 years back. When he took only a few shots because someone said he shot too much, or whatever the story was.

So much for true will to win at that point.

europa · Post #453 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 4:56 pm

REDDzone wrote:If I disliked Kobe for any reason, it would def be for his pouting against the Suns in the first round 5-6 years back. When he took only a few shots because someone said he shot too much, or whatever the story was.

So much for true will to win at that point.

Yup, that was deplorable, just like it was deplorable when LeBron quit on the Cavs in his final playoff game with Cleveland. I don't think either of those games defined who those players are, though, just like I don't think Pippen quitting on the infamous Kukoc play with the Bulls defined who he was.

coolhandluke121 · Post #454 » by **coolhandluke121** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:01 pm

Btw, I didn't mean to sound like I was defending Lebron there. Just that it seems odd to choose a guy like Kobe to contrast him with, because the common perception of Kobe seems really distorted.

White+Purple · Post #455 » by **White+Purple** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:15 pm

Newz wrote:It will never stop baffling me how people cannot see that a championship is a team award. Kobe had Shaq... then he had Gasol/Odom/Bynum. Jordan had Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc. Magic had Kareem/Worthy. Bird had McHale/Parish.

This.

'Player X has more rings' is a strawman imo.

Newz · Post #456 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:15 pm

DocHoliday wrote:http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/moments/60moments.html

not even top 60

Those are moments, not overall performances...

europa · Post #457 » by **europa** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:17 pm

White+Purple wrote:
Newz wrote:It will never stop baffling me how people cannot see that a championship is a team award. Kobe had Shaq... then he had Gasol/Odom/Bynum. Jordan had Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc. Magic had Kareem/Worthy. Bird had McHale/Parish.

This.

'Player X has more rings' is a strawman imo.

Just to be clear I never said I preferred Kobe (prime) over LeBron in a championship game because Kobe has more rings.

White+Purple · Post #458 » by **White+Purple** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:21 pm

europa wrote:Just to be clear I never said I preferred Kobe (prime) over LeBron in a championship game because Kobe has more rings.

Yeah I don't tend to criticise subjective arguments

Newz · Post #459 » by **Newz** » Wed May 2, 2012 5:23 pm

europa wrote:Just to be clear I never said I preferred Kobe (prime) over LeBron in a championship game because Kobe has more rings.

Why then? Kobe has had just as many blunders and probably more games that show he is mentally weak than LeBron.

Getting jealous of Shaq and not feeding him against the Pistons. Giving up against the Suns. Coming into that one game and shooting left handed like a total moron. The point was made earlier... you are confusing his obsession with personal glory with an obsession for winning. There are no stats or no real logical reasons to say Kobe has 'it' and LeBron doesn't.

Kobe might scowl and look angry more often... so I guess he has that going for him.

jeremyd236 · Post #460 » by **jeremyd236** » Wed May 2, 2012 6:07 pm

He doesn't choke in the fourth quarter and hits shots when it matters. How many game winning shots doe Lebron have? Do you really want to keep going?