Middleton/Johnson to Wash for Kuzma/Baldwin

[El Pooch Grande]

Can someone explain how we are better? Lets say Middleton could only play 25-28 mpg in the playoffs. He's still an efficient scorer, floor spacer, and a very good passer. Are people expecting that Kuzma is all off a sudden going to shoot a career high from 3 here? I just don't get it. Stop looking at PPG.

If Midds plays 25-28 mins in the playoffs he won't last more than 2 games.

[MiltownMadness]

Think a big body getting +30 minutes a night gives us quite a few wins for sure, yeah. Unless Kuzma goes scorched earth and takes tons of shots away from Dame/Giannis

Dame and Giannis will not allow that.

Yep

[LUKE23]

Middleton's biggest issue since he came back was B2B's. Those don't exist in the playoffs. I don't think he could play 35 mpg anymore, but 25-30 with days off in between? Yes. But honestly, I'm more pissed because I think Kuzma will be net negative for us and we gave up Johnson, who I think has immense ceiling.

[blazza18]

Jon Horst is such a loser and such an awful negotiator. I bet he’s proud of himself for not giving up that prized 2031 pick.

Giving up a recent draft pick and targeting a bad player is so in line with his evaluating skills and the reason why we’re a mess of a franchise again. Bud isn’t around to make him look competent anymore.

[Matches Malone]

He mentioned how it hurts when guys leave and mentioned it will hurt when Bobby, Pat and Brook are gone too. Probably just meant in general, but maybe something else is cooking.

Watch on YouTube

[TroyD92]

Imagine two years ago trading Middleton for Kuz lmao. This franchise is cooked

[Chapter29]

Can someone explain how we are better? Lets say Middleton could only play 25-28 mpg in the playoffs. He's still an efficient scorer, floor spacer, and a very good passer. Are people expecting that Kuzma is all off a sudden going to shoot a career high from 3 here? I just don't get it. Stop looking at PPG.

We are under the 2nd apron. So the only way this was a good trade is if we make another, better move.

We are not better at this moment, Kuzma sucks.

[TroyD92]

Can someone put together a list of all John Horst moves and we decide as a collective if he’s terrible at his job or not?

[jimmybones]

Did we even get to see the Giannis/Dame/Middleton trio in the playoffs? I don't think we got one game with them lmao. We are in the dark days.

What makes it even more depressing is that Dame and Giannis being unavailable not only excluded us from seeing them together last year but also indirectly, probably, led to Khris being even more broken meaning we'd never truly see that trio. There was a lot of tread on those tires going into those playoffs and that heavy workload did a number. Respect that he put himself out there in those playoffs but it took a physical toll on him.

We should have moved on in the offseason when his value was higher, but then again other teams potentially already knew he was physically cooked so who knows how much higher his value would be then. I'd assume higher based on teams hoping he'd return to form but all of the film from this year plus existing knowledge of his physical (broken) state crushed his value.

It's really simple, if Khris was still even remotely capable of being the player we all want him to be, we either:
-don't trade him
or
-trade him for a lot more than what we just got

I know it's fun to yell and say how much you don't like the trade and that Horst is dumb but at least come from a placed rooted in reality. Anyone saying we should have let it ride or gotten more are simply living in delusion. Accept that he's physically cooked and it's not going to get better and things become so much more clear.

If your argument is that we should have traded him sooner while his value was higher, I'd agree with you. If your argument is that Khris is (was?) better at basketball than Kuzma, you're way missing the point.

[Ron Swanson]

There any hope left that this can still be merged into a larger Phoenix trade where we get KD, Miami gets Kuzma + Bobby, and Phoenix gets Jimmy and our 2031 1st? That's all I got at this point.

[MiltownMadness]

Can someone put together a list of all John Horst moves and we decide as a collective if he’s terrible at his job or not?

Don't think he's terrible, that Dame trade is still legendary and we won a chip at the end of the day. Could trade Dame rn for a small treasure chest while Jrue is decaying. But ya he has worn out his welcome, he just traded my guy to **** Washington for KUZMA...and gave up a prospect I liked. Don't know how to feel today, lots of negative emotions

[msiris]

This was only about getting under the 2nd apron. He's not dumb enough to think this made us better right¿

[M-C-G]

Kuzma is shooting 30.4% on wide open 3s.

I think he is your stand in the corner guy (where he has been ok-ish) and your dunker/slasher. Will be interesting to see but I can’t imagine he is getting the type of usage he had in WAS here.

[Ruben Quevedo]

There's going to be a point, in the likely not-too-distant future, where we're watching a 25-57 Bucks team get blown out in Orlando and we're reminiscing about the Giannis years and we're debating at what precise moment it all fell apart.

I fear that this trade is that moment.

The real moment was when we wouldn’t give PJ is 2/$20 deal he wanted.

But yes this is the beginning of the end.

I'm sure many will disagree, but the beginning of the end was winning the title. We were a weak title winner, and the trophy tricked us into thinking we were better than we were. We were a KD jumper away from going down 0-3 to the Nets, a Nets without Harden and who lost Kyrie one game later. Lose that series, and the changes would've been wholesale. Then the Hawks were one of, if not the worst conference finals team in the last 25 years. Suns were a legitimately good team but far from a juggernaut.

Losing in 7 to Boston without Khris just tricked us again. I thought Boston was clearly the better team and a healthy Khris would not have made a difference. Then we lose Giannis against the Heat and get tricked again (Boston beat us by about 100 points at home a few weeks before). Then we lose Giannis and Dame against the Pacers to give us another reason to "run it back."

But look at the underlying numbers even when everyone was healthy. We had a 3 year sample of good, and sometimes very good, but not great basketball. We never really recovered our level pre-Covid level of just smashing teams.

[Daver]

Does this at least bring us under the 2nd apron?

Yes, and the 2031 pick is still untouched

Plus the 2032 frp is now unfrozen

[BroncoBuck]

Being below the aprons is an asset.

The new CBA is extremely punishing. It’s not about saving ownership money, it’s about all the tools you have available operating below the aprons. We have a few picks and the space to necessitate landing a big money player next season while offering no long term money in return now.

[Bernman]

This trade involved 3 players where I thought the discourse overall was quite ignorant in the negative direction - Middleton, AJ Johnson, & Kyle Kuzma.

It's next-level dumb we needed to give up 2 for Kuzma. But I'll say at least, about the context-free Kuzma discourse, if you're not factoring in that he's playing in DC for his D & shooting, that's silly. He was a fairly different player in LA. Will play off the ball here more to get better looks. & he should be arsed to care. Otherwise he'll be a pariah. Championship or bust (so likely bust).

I think it'll be a rep change similar to Bobby his 1st couple yrs here. And no, that's not a 1:1 comparison to Bobby. His highs were higher before Milwaukee, & he's more well-rounded. Maybe a genuine starter version. That's still not enough.

This sort of locks us into having him as part of your core, & he's a questionable member, at best a 3. You unequivocally now have to trade Dame for the #2 in the offseason, otherwise where else are we getting our Robin from going fw? For that reason, and others, I'd have preferred Butler or Ingram, even if the '31 1st had to go out (instead of AJJo). We'd have been better this season, and then we could have reupped Ingram, or enjoyed a refresh.

As much as I don't hate Kuzma in a vacuum like many, we chose the worst possible route between not doing anything huge, or one of the other viable trades where we did.

[JayMKE]

This was only about getting under the 2nd apron. He's not dumb enough to think this made us better right¿

I can already see the press conference “we thought this gave us the best chance to win” no way they admit punting the season for cost cutting measure because of incompetent cap management

[El Pooch Grande]

I'm trying to remain positive. Was Kuzma the ultimate player to get? Not a chance. But I do believe he is better than a washed Khris, and the odds of AJJ being more than a Tank Commander remain quite low in my book. I'm willing to roll the dice for a potentially slightly better current player + the roster flexibility that the trade opens up. Plus I do believe there will be at least one follow up move by tomorrow.

[Packbuckman]

Can someone explain how we are better? Lets say Middleton could only play 25-28 mpg in the playoffs. He's still an efficient scorer, floor spacer, and a very good passer. Are people expecting that Kuzma is all off a sudden going to shoot a career high from 3 here? I just don't get it. Stop looking at PPG.

If Midds plays 25-28 mins in the playoffs he won't last more than 2 games.

That’s **** bull and this trade is worse than we traded Ray Allen