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Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - No Politics

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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#561 » by giannis and 1 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 2:57 am

ShootingtheJ wrote:
LuessiT wrote:Generally I'm opposed to targeting these high picked busts still on rookie contracts. You generally get an overpaid young player but without the potential upside of RFA rights because the QO is so high you'd never offer it anyway. Obviously you have to go to a case by case basis but taking a flier more often than not has much less upside than most think.
That said if a team could maximize Bamba it's the Bucks. Given his strengths and weaknesses his profile is like a blueprint of what we'd want our starting center to be. If he's very cheap (I view him as a neutral contract at best) I'd take a chance on him.


The difference is Bamba isn't a bust, he's effective when he plays, and is dominant defensively. He simply doesn't play because they have an all star center, and because Steve Clifford is a weirdo.

If we do a deal with them, we'll have to do it quickly and quietly, because once word gets out, the whole league will be calling for Bamba.

If that's the case then I would offer Wilson, and keep throwing in 2nd rounders until they accept.
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Matches Malone wrote:How did NBA fandom get to the point that it's more fun to thirst over players on other teams than to care more about your own team and players...
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#562 » by giannis and 1 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 3:07 am

emunney wrote:DJA's here to dribble the ball and splash 3s and he's doing a lot of both of those things, and those things are worth what we're paying him, so the argument that he sucks is dubious to me. Despite our shallow bench, we're something like +3.5 in units that have 3 or more non-starters, which you might write off as evidence that those two starters are just really good, but I think it's more about fit and the fact that the bench guys we're playing are ok. For example, Forbes is not that good, but Giannis and Forbes is an offense.

Looking at lineups that only have one of Khris, Giannis, or Jrue:

Just Giannis 111 minutes
ORTG:125.3
DRTG: 116.9
net: +8.4

Just Khris 51 minutes
ORTG: 125.5
DRTG: 104.9
net: +20.6

Just Jrue 54 minutes
ORTG: 106.9
DRTG: 98.3
net: +8.6

The problem with these types of stats is that they don't have enough context. You have to factor the quality of competition that those lineups play against. There's no way Giannis without Middleton+Jrue, Middleton without Giannis/Jrue, Jrue without Giannis/Middleton plays against the same level of competition that as the three of them, or 2 of them together does.
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Matches Malone wrote:How did NBA fandom get to the point that it's more fun to thirst over players on other teams than to care more about your own team and players...
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#563 » by Wisky4life » Tue Feb 9, 2021 3:16 am

I am all for trading Wilson and Lopez for a player and Bamba.

Clear some of that cap space.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#564 » by giannis and 1 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 3:20 am

A lot of good proposals in the last couple pages.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#565 » by DingleJerry » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:54 am

giannis and 1 wrote:
DingleJerry wrote:
giannis and 1 wrote:Yes. He's an average shooter with great passing and good defense.

If his name was Frank Andersen, I would want him even more because we wouldn't have to put up with that crazy ass clown dad.


If you say so. I'd guess he wouldn't even be on our radar if not for the hype on his name. Good D and passing, can probably find tons of guys who cost way less to acquire and way less in contract with that skill. Many with that skillset probably don't even get a chance in the NBA because it's all about shooting now.

He's not even a bad shooter though. His main trait is that he has the ability to be a floor general. That is pretty valuable, no?


He's improved but is not a good shooter. He's Ricky Rubio. That's a fine competent player but also nothing special and not worth the cost. Just not good enough to be one of your 'guys' so to speak. You don't have to pay out of your nose for a good ball handler/passer who's good at D. You can cover these skills at much lower costs. In this case you're going to have to pay to get him, then pay him a legit contract to keep him. I'd agree sure as a basketball player I'd have him in my team if I had shooters around him (which we don't) but having him at cheap vs what will be 15+ mil per year is a pass for me. Cheap vets are available every year to be a backup combo guard, which is probably where Ball is going to settle in. Starter on a bad team, backup combo guy on winning team.

I don't know, top of my head, a guy like TJ Mcconnell can covers this stuff too and not cost near as much, guys like that. Sure I guess I'd say the athleticism and such of a Ball makes him a better player vs most guys I'm talking about. But we're factoring in cost here, get like 85-90% of the player for 1/4 the cost or less. And Bucks are up against the cap hard from here out.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#566 » by tedbrogen » Tue Feb 9, 2021 5:00 am

Wisky4life wrote:I am all for trading Wilson and Lopez for a player and Bamba.

Clear some of that cap space.


Brook, DJW, and Augustin for Fournier and Bamba works salary-wise and gives the Bucks an extra $800k to spend. Meaning they can probably grab two buyout guys on minimum prorated salaries (correct?).

Toss in as many seconds as Hammond's heart desires.

Doubt the Magic would do that though unless they are that desperate for a PG to chase the 8th seed and are convinced that Brook is an upgrade over Bamba for their 8th seed chasing.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#567 » by buckbeer » Tue Feb 9, 2021 5:07 am

Trade the two DJs (Augustin and Wilson) for Bjelica and Glenn Robinson III
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#568 » by -Jragon- » Tue Feb 9, 2021 9:25 am

If the trade doesn't make our lineup unquestionably better than there's no point. These trades all are lateral type moves that could backfire making our chemistry worse.
If DD, Brook, and 2nds gets us a disgruntled above average starting 2 than do it and replace Brook with Portis + buyout + DJW or 2nd smaller trade.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#569 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 3:59 pm

Yeah, with things starting to click I'm not as preoccupied with trade possibilities. Theoretically this team should have a lot of really good fits but it took a few months to show it. DJA and Forbes are starting to jell big time, although I still wish Bud would stagger them for as close to 100% of their minutes as possible.

Also, the team's options are more constrained than I ever remember them being due to lack of picks, the hard cap situation, and the lack of contracts to make salaries match without decimating the depth. I really think it's all about extending Jrue as soon as possible and then making sure they'll be able to pay DDV in 2022. To me, that means trading Brook and Pat eventually, but it doesn't have to be now.

I think the biggest weakness on the team, relative to role, is Brook as the starting center. He also happens to be the most obvious candidate to clear salary because of his age and having 2 years left for over $27m. But they can win with him this year.

Jrue - strong starting PG
DDV - good starting SG (it's an extremely weak position right now in the NBA)
Khris - excellent starting SF
Giannis - elite starting PF
Brook - average starting center
DJA - slightly above average backup PG despite his slow start
Forbes - average backup SG due to his shooting
Pat C - good backup SF if the improved shooting is real
Craig - average backup smallball PF
Portis - good backup center
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#570 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:03 pm

By the way you could argue it's important to trade Brook now so they can give Portis a raise this summer. Can't believe I'm saying that. :lol:

Of course his shooting will probably come back to earth eventually, but he'll clearly still get a big raise.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#571 » by randy84 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:38 pm

Muscala for Wilson and a second.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#572 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:45 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:By the way you could argue it's important to trade Brook now so they can give Portis a raise this summer. Can't believe I'm saying that. :lol:

Of course his shooting will probably come back to earth eventually, but he'll clearly still get a big raise.

We don't keep Portis without clearing Lopez salary and the only way to do that is to trade Lopez for an expiring (or a pick if a team has cap room to absorb Lopez). I don't see it happening.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#573 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:47 pm

randy84 wrote:Muscala for Wilson and a second.


Yeah, been pushing something like this since before the season even started. Muscala is an obtainable good fit with the Budenholzer connection. This isn't a splashy move but it's realistic and it would help. OKC will probably get at least 2 srp's or maybe a late frp for him with how well he's been playing though.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#574 » by -Jragon- » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:50 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:Yeah, with things starting to click I'm not as preoccupied with trade possibilities. Theoretically this team should have a lot of really good fits but it took a few months to show it. DJA and Forbes are starting to jell big time, although I still wish Bud would stagger them for as close to 100% of their minutes as possible.

Also, the team's options are more constrained than I ever remember them being due to lack of picks, the hard cap situation, and the lack of contracts to make salaries match without decimating the depth. I really think it's all about extending Jrue as soon as possible and then making sure they'll be able to pay DDV in 2022. To me, that means trading Brook and Pat eventually, but it doesn't have to be now.

I think the biggest weakness on the team, relative to role, is Brook as the starting center. He also happens to be the most obvious candidate to clear salary because of his age and having 2 years left for over $27m. But they can win with him this year.

Jrue - strong starting PG
DDV - good starting SG (it's an extremely weak position right now in the NBA)
Khris - excellent starting SF
Giannis - elite starting PF
Brook - average starting center
DJA - slightly above average backup PG despite his slow start
Forbes - average backup SG due to his shooting
Pat C - good backup SF if the improved shooting is real
Craig - average backup smallball PF
Portis - good backup center


DDV is the weak spot despite a lack of SG talent around the league. Largely invisible for several nights in a row and pleasantly surprised when he has an occasional hot shooting day. We are getting lit up by guards hitting open 3s on an almost daily basis. At this point I don't see why we would extend him, he'll be another ba bye like Malcom and such.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#575 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:51 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:By the way you could argue it's important to trade Brook now so they can give Portis a raise this summer. Can't believe I'm saying that. :lol:

Of course his shooting will probably come back to earth eventually, but he'll clearly still get a big raise.

We don't keep Portis without clearing Lopez salary and the only way to do that is to trade Lopez for an expiring (or a pick if a team has cap room to absorb Lopez). I don't see it happening.


I agree on both counts. Just pointing out that it is another argument the trade-Brook advocates can use in their favor.

I personally would like them to take that gamble because I think Brook will continue to decline and they should trade him before his salary becomes a serious issue, but I understand why it would be really controversial to take the risk of making the team worse this year.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#576 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:54 pm

-Jragon- wrote:DDV is the weak spot despite a lack of SG talent around the league. Largely invisible for several nights in a row and pleasantly surprised when he has an occasional hot shooting day. We are getting lit up by guards hitting open 3s on an almost daily basis. At this point I don't see why we would extend him, he'll be another ba bye like Malcom and such.


Extreme PPGZ! bias. He's a really good player and a rare commodity. Now up to 28th in the entire NBA in rpm.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#577 » by DingleJerry » Tue Feb 9, 2021 4:58 pm

I get why Lopez's name gets brought up so much. But I'd guess a move that makes sense isn't really available mid season. Assuming they don't make the Finals again this year with BKN so good now I think Lopez trade will be the try next offseason to get another wing type guy (like the BB trade that didn't happen). Then they'd try to fill in with a cheap big to replace Brook.

Another factor in Brook is 2 years left while showing clear signs of decline. Might want to get out of this offseason just to eliminate the risk of having to pay to get out of it later. Basically trade while he still has value or at least is neutral. 4th year probably seems like a mistake on his contract. Who knows on the market that was out there for him but even at the time that seemed like an extra year with his age, injury history, and that no one wanted him 12 months earlier.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#578 » by LuessiT » Tue Feb 9, 2021 5:07 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
-Jragon- wrote:DDV is the weak spot despite a lack of SG talent around the league. Largely invisible for several nights in a row and pleasantly surprised when he has an occasional hot shooting day. We are getting lit up by guards hitting open 3s on an almost daily basis. At this point I don't see why we would extend him, he'll be another ba bye like Malcom and such.


Extreme PPGZ! bias. He's a really good player and a rare commodity. Now up to 28th in the entire NBA in rpm.


He's good but he could be much better if he knew his limitations. He has the ability to be a guard version of Draymond Green but he'll need to be a lot smarter.
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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#579 » by crkone » Tue Feb 9, 2021 5:13 pm

https://theathletic.com/2373285/

Another gem from Seth on why teams want guards to shooter the floater and how it works against teams if they try to take it away:

First of all, addressing these sorts of questions can be a little tricky because what’s a floater? I’ve written elsewhere that the “floater” shot type in the game description or play-by-play is unreliable; that sort of “enhanced shot description” is inconsistently applied and more likely to be added to the entry for a made shot than a miss. Charted shot distances are similarly tricky because, especially on a shot where the shooter is, well, floating toward the basket, the location of the shot isn’t always easy to determine. Further, some of the shots from this sort of area of the court could easily be the result of traditional post-ups rather than guards shooting runners or teardrops against a drop covering big.

It’s the best we can do, though, and looking at the last five seasons of data for shots taken in the 8- to 16-foot range, only two or three players per season end up shooting a high enough percentage on a significant number of attempts at this range (call it 52.5 percent to be the eFG% equivalent of a 35 percent 3-pointer, to “make a living” on this shot). Khris Middleton and Kevin Durant are two players who consistently score well from this range. But for most players, it’s pretty marginal.

Taking the floater is as much about trying to get the defender to react to the fact that you might take the floater. So, as Bickerstaff is suggesting, if the guard is simply going to get a spot and shoot a runner, that’s advantage: defense. In the clip used by Johnson above, the play is not especially well defended at the point of attack. But if the downside of that lack of perfect execution is a 2-point shot that most players will struggle to make half of, that’s not a whole lot of downside! As a defensive team, you aren’t satisfied with giving that shot up, but you’ll take it and hope the defender (Jrue Holiday in this case) gets enough pressure on the shooter to turn it from a high 40s-type shot to one in the low 40s.
....

Much as in poker, bluffing is a vital part of offensive repertoire. If the guard is never going to shoot this floater, the defense has it easy. Have the big drop and wall up in front of the rim. Players on the perimeter stay attached to shooters and dare the player to run smack into one of the best rim protectors in the league. However, just knowing that, in this case, Darius Garland will take that shot, now defenses have a decision to make. Even if on aggregate the percentages suggest making him hit the runner over and over again, if he makes one or two, there is enough doubt that by leaving him completely uncontested, the shot is going from a marginally bad and lower than average efficiency shot to becoming marginally above average. Forcing that decision in a moment of uncertainty is why the bluff has power.

The offense wants to take this shot —run this bluff — often enough to sow that confusion, but not so often that they are left taking a huge proportion of their shots from low percentage areas.

Of course, with a player like Durant or Middleton on the ball in these situations, the offense might be bluffing with the best hand, which is why those rare star players who can reverse the math on otherwise ill-advised shots are so valuable to begin with.

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Re: Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions 

Post#580 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Feb 9, 2021 5:47 pm

Khris Middleton now being referred to as a "rare star player" in the same sentence as Kevin Durant. Don't show this article to a certain someone or else he might break his keyboard in seething anger.

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