Middleton/Johnson to Wash for Kuzma/Baldwin

[msiris]

We're already under the 2nd apron so why would we give up another asset to dump Pat's contract at this point? The worse Martin brother? Seriously?

Might not be about the second apron. Might be about dumping Pat’s $9.4M next season and turning his spot into a good defender in Martin. I’d do Pat plus one or two seconds for Martin just to have another defender to throw out there.

Doesnt matter Won't make us better. Just reshuffling the deck.

[JayMKE]

Cody Martin is maybe okay bench guy but what draft capital do we even have besides ‘31 1st?

[Bernman]

Giannis had to approve of it to some degree. They wouldn't have made the deal otherwise. He also made public comments recently to compel a shake-up, like pre Jrue move, that gets Bucks to jump. And he's a horrible eye for talent - see the All-Star games.

[drew881]

Would comically bad if AJJ blew up, made that team good and cook the pick swap in the process.

[Profound23]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.



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Then you never should have drafted him...either way it's a mistake and waste or resource

[LittleRooster]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.



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Then don’t draft him in the first place

[JayMKE]

Well, trading Pat for Martin clears an extra 1.3M, and that could be very useful when trying to fill out the roster if we make a big move. However, it does limit the size of the contract we can take in. I think that would kill a Jimmy/KD move.

Those other names don’t do anything for me

[yannisk]

Cody Martin is career 32% from 3. Would be another bad move.

and 66% career FT shooter, GM Giannis is amassing players that rival him as bad shooters

[soxperry]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.

But then how do we move Khris? Seems like it proved a useful pick for us


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Then don’t draft him in the first place

[tedbrogen]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.



Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Yep. Once Giannis is out of his prime, Bucks won’t contend again until they luck into a top five player. Took almost forty years from Lew to Giannis. No matter how good AJJo ends up being, he’s not going to be a guy so good he’d carry them to being a contender (he’s not a top five in the league ceiling) and clearly was not going to be ready for actual minutes in the next couple seasons.

[tedbrogen]

Cody Martin is maybe okay bench guy but what draft capital do we even have besides ‘31 1st?

Got a second in the Wiz deal and have the 2031 second.

[CharityStripe34]

I'm sure many will disagree, but the beginning of the end was winning the title. We were a weak title winner, and the trophy tricked us into thinking we were better than we were. We were a KD jumper away from going down 0-3 to the Nets, a Nets without Harden and who lost Kyrie one game later. Lose that series, and the changes would've been wholesale. Then the Hawks were one of, if not the worst conference finals team in the last 25 years. Suns were a legitimately good team but far from a juggernaut.

Losing in 7 to Boston without Khris just tricked us again. I thought Boston was clearly the better team and a healthy Khris would not have made a difference. Then we lose Giannis against the Heat and get tricked again (Boston beat us by about 100 points at home a few weeks before). Then we lose Giannis and Dame against the Pacers to give us another reason to "run it back."

But look at the underlying numbers even when everyone was healthy. We had a 3 year sample of good, and sometimes very good, but not great basketball. We never really recovered our level pre-Covid level of just smashing teams.

Much of what you said I agree with, though I would think had Khris not slipped and messed up his knee in 2022, that was a title-winning team. He could still defend at a solid level and was always (to that point) someone who murdered Boston. This would've meant Holiday wouldn't have to take as many shots and could focus more on what he did well, Grayson would not have nearly the responsibility and could simply run around and make some threes (and move the ball), etc. etc. It would've given Boston another 20ppg scorer at great efficiency to guard at least.

Miami would've played us tougher than in 2021, but I think we beat them in the ECF and could've definitely beaten GS as 2022 Draymond would've been introduced to the gimp from Giannis. Sadly, the chips fell the way they did and Khris never really recovered, coupled with Jrue's offense collapsing every post-season and Giannis missing nearly two playoff seasons getting hurt at the worst time. Sucks.

The first domino that should've fallen was Brook. He was a great rim protector but a very match-up specific player that absolutely KILLED us against Boston and other teams that could go small, hence why Horford turned into prime Dirk on the pick and pop. Horst should've sold on Brook much higher. We won the title against Phoenix (a very good team) with PJ averaging essentially 0 points and playing major crunch time minutes. The move was always to bring in a solid defensive wing/F that could scale up and give us the Giannis-at-C lineups that could crush teams and Horst NEVER MADE IT HAPPEN. Preferring instead to extend Brook right after he came off of back-surgery in his thirties no less (and we see the last two years he can barely move or jump for a rebound).

I do agree that Horst and ownership overvalued the title-winning core group and should've started quietly shopping some guys 1-2 years ago to become more athletic, younger and switchable.

Khris would've helped offensively against Boston, no question. But I don't think it would've fixed our defensive issues against them.

I was always fine with keeping Brook because his rim protection is extremely valuable and there were plenty of good teams who also played with a plodding center or non shooters that we could hide him on. The problem as you said was never finding that additional small ball option to play the 4/5 for us.

You're right, Khris wouldn't have suddenly shut down Tatum, but I think he was still mobile enough and savvy enough to provide some resistance and possibly make him less efficient along with being able to switch onto guys like Brown and White just enough. I just think back to Game 6 at home when Giannis was giving us 44/20 and making most of his FTs and NO ONE ELSE could make anything, while Tatum was putting up his own 40 burger. That was a game I think Khris tilts to our advantage, and we move on to the ECF. C'est la vie.

The problem with Brook is that you have to exploit Brook's size against teams that go small and that's taking shots away from Giannis, Khris and (now) Dame. Besides Embiid, plenty of teams are opting for athleticism at the big spot and we never (and likely never will) ended up playing Embiid in the playoffs anyway. Part of those defensive issues we had against Boston was that they were murdering us with the drop and Horford's pick and pop game. Brook is very good for the regular season, but the drop defense gets abused over and over in the playoffs unless you're Jokic on offense. It's taken all the way until Doc was a panic hire to realize "hey if we're playing two bigs, may as well have some high/low action on offense." Though I suppose it's possible that the Bucks tried talking Giannis into playing (mostly) C but he wasn't having it.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Cody Martin is maybe okay bench guy but what draft capital do we even have besides ‘31 1st?

Martin is partially guaranteed next year, while Patty C is definitely taking his PO. I dont see Charlotte does this unless it has some material value....which i then pass.

[Bernman]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.



Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Then don’t draft him in the first place

That's the most salient pt. It didn't make sense to draft a developmental project in the Bucks' situation in the 1st place. Then one can't say now he didn't fit the timeline to excuse this decision now.

The other pt is why is he thrown in to a move where we get the worse win now player, instead of straight up for a better one.

[jschligs]

Maybe Johnson becomes a good or great NBA player. None of us know about that.

But we are all 100% certain that his NBA timeliness does not align with that of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Damian Lillard.

Every significant move the Bucks make needs to be about the Giannis Antetokounmpo Bucks.



Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

To some of the media's point...it was an absolute idiot draft choice...

[bucksfansince88]

Horst cant be done dealing this alone is horrendous, I would hope there is another domino set to fall soon and Cody/Caleb Martin aint moving any needles!

[JayMKE]

Cody Martin is maybe okay bench guy but what draft capital do we even have besides ‘31 1st?

Got a second in the Wiz deal and have the 2031 second.

And that’s the later of their 2nd round picks right?

I think we would have preferred his brother Caleb but whatever, Pat isn’t helping us and our defense needs any help it can get.

[M-C-G]

Draft picks panning out don't have to make DPOY or lead LeBron's Lakers to a title. You know what I mean and you know why everybody's reacting this way. At this stage, at his stage of devt, Johnson is easily shows solid promise of recent draft picks. We're lucky we hit on that pick, and throwing away the young dude is as asinine as it is low bbiq.

Showing promise, absolutely. Hitting on the pick, don’t agree, yet. Thon showed promise. nwora showed promise. I think the timeline for AJJ to play wasn’t a fit and if anything should have us pissing on Horst for not getting Dunn all the more

Fundamental distinction between Thon's 'promise', Nwora's 'promise', and the performance AJ Johnson put on the floor. No need to say it was more than it is. Young, not there yet; an entire categorical difference as far as NBA potential. You're talking weak, weak hopes versus stop-me hoops. Denialism will leave the Bucks putting a 47yo Giannis on the floor, alone, with nobody left to ignore but has-been free agent point guards he won't let handle the ball. --Oh, I see, you're still just Big Mad about Dunn. He has to get there before we can say we 'hit on the pick'. You're looking end-stage; we're not talking about 7years from now. 'We hit on the pick at this stage of development; given what we know, so far.' Not hard to grasp.

Not hard to grasp. He is putting up mediocre stats in G league and not going to crack the line up this year because he got beat out by Rollins Ajax and Green for potential minutes. It’s important to understand that I like his potential but I’ve exhausted this conversation because the deal is done.

Let me ask assuming we did this solely to get out of the Midds opt in and get under the second apron, are you choosing AJ Green, Ajax or AJJ or the 31 1st as the compensation? They obviously didn’t view Marjon as value, so which young player or pick are you giving up? I think the answer is clear, AJJ or Ajax (to me)

[Ruben Quevedo]

Much of what you said I agree with, though I would think had Khris not slipped and messed up his knee in 2022, that was a title-winning team. He could still defend at a solid level and was always (to that point) someone who murdered Boston. This would've meant Holiday wouldn't have to take as many shots and could focus more on what he did well, Grayson would not have nearly the responsibility and could simply run around and make some threes (and move the ball), etc. etc. It would've given Boston another 20ppg scorer at great efficiency to guard at least.

Miami would've played us tougher than in 2021, but I think we beat them in the ECF and could've definitely beaten GS as 2022 Draymond would've been introduced to the gimp from Giannis. Sadly, the chips fell the way they did and Khris never really recovered, coupled with Jrue's offense collapsing every post-season and Giannis missing nearly two playoff seasons getting hurt at the worst time. Sucks.

The first domino that should've fallen was Brook. He was a great rim protector but a very match-up specific player that absolutely KILLED us against Boston and other teams that could go small, hence why Horford turned into prime Dirk on the pick and pop. Horst should've sold on Brook much higher. We won the title against Phoenix (a very good team) with PJ averaging essentially 0 points and playing major crunch time minutes. The move was always to bring in a solid defensive wing/F that could scale up and give us the Giannis-at-C lineups that could crush teams and Horst NEVER MADE IT HAPPEN. Preferring instead to extend Brook right after he came off of back-surgery in his thirties no less (and we see the last two years he can barely move or jump for a rebound).

I do agree that Horst and ownership overvalued the title-winning core group and should've started quietly shopping some guys 1-2 years ago to become more athletic, younger and switchable.

Khris would've helped offensively against Boston, no question. But I don't think it would've fixed our defensive issues against them.

I was always fine with keeping Brook because his rim protection is extremely valuable and there were plenty of good teams who also played with a plodding center or non shooters that we could hide him on. The problem as you said was never finding that additional small ball option to play the 4/5 for us.

You're right, Khris wouldn't have suddenly shut down Tatum, but I think he was still mobile enough and savvy enough to provide some resistance and possibly make him less efficient along with being able to switch onto guys like Brown and White just enough. I just think back to Game 6 at home when Giannis was giving us 44/20 and making most of his FTs and NO ONE ELSE could make anything, while Tatum was putting up his own 40 burger. That was a game I think Khris tilts to our advantage, and we move on to the ECF. C'est la vie.

The problem with Brook is that you have to exploit Brook's size against teams that go small and that's taking shots away from Giannis, Khris and (now) Dame. Besides Embiid, plenty of teams are opting for athleticism at the big spot and we never (and likely never will) ended up playing Embiid in the playoffs anyway. Part of those defensive issues we had against Boston was that they were murdering us with the drop and Horford's pick and pop game. Brook is very good for the regular season, but the drop defense gets abused over and over in the playoffs unless you're Jokic on offense. It's taken all the way until Doc was a panic hire to realize "hey if we're playing two bigs, may as well have some high/low action on offense." Though I suppose it's possible that the Bucks tried talking Giannis into playing (mostly) C but he wasn't having it.

Boston smoked us twice that series (game 2 and 7), plus a clear win in game 6 (won by 13). We stole game 5 and hung on for dear life in game 3. I never felt like we were the better team.

I agree about Brook, my point was that it would've been nice to keep him AND have someone we can play with Giannis so that we can bench Brook when the matchups weren't in his favor. Maybe that was never realistic though.

[Daver]

Showing promise, absolutely. Hitting on the pick, don’t agree, yet. Thon showed promise. nwora showed promise. I think the timeline for AJJ to play wasn’t a fit and if anything should have us pissing on Horst for not getting Dunn all the more

Fundamental distinction between Thon's 'promise', Nwora's 'promise', and the performance AJ Johnson put on the floor. No need to say it was more than it is. Young, not there yet; an entire categorical difference as far as NBA potential. You're talking weak, weak hopes versus stop-me hoops. Denialism will leave the Bucks putting a 47yo Giannis on the floor, alone, with nobody left to ignore but has-been free agent point guards he won't let handle the ball. --Oh, I see, you're still just Big Mad about Dunn. He has to get there before we can say we 'hit on the pick'. You're looking end-stage; we're not talking about 7years from now. 'We hit on the pick at this stage of development; given what we know, so far.' Not hard to grasp.

Not hard to grasp. He is putting up mediocre stats in G league and not going to crack the line up this year because he got beat out by Rollins Ajax and Green for potential minutes. It’s important to understand that I like his potential but I’ve exhausted this conversation because the deal is done.

Let me ask assuming we did this solely to get out of the Midds opt in and get under the second apron, are you choosing AJ Green, Ajax or AJJ or the 31 1st as the compensation? They obviously didn’t view Marjon as value, so which young player or pick are you giving up? I think the answer is clear, AJJ or Ajax (to me)

Probably wanted no part of ajax either