2017 NBA DRAFT Part 3

[emunney]

There is no player in this draft more Mo Speights than John Collins. Easy pass for me.

Disagree. John Collins leads this draft class in PER by far according to DX

1.John Collins 36.3
2. Zach Collins 31.3
3. Sindarius Thornwell 30.6

He is at least a Taj Gibson. He could be the starter PF and probably the No3-4 guy in a Championship team

PER means nothing outside of boxscore production. Terrible way to shoot down a comparison and make a judgement on a player.

Also Speights' boxscore production was one of his main selling points coming out of UF. Believe he also had a 30+ PER as a sophomore.

[Ruzious]

Disagree. John Collins leads this draft class in PER by far according to DX

1.John Collins 36.3
2. Zach Collins 31.3
3. Sindarius Thornwell 30.6

He is at least a Taj Gibson. He could be the starter PF and probably the No3-4 guy in a Championship team

PER means nothing outside of boxscore production. Terrible way to shoot down a comparison and make a judgement on a player.

Also Speights' boxscore production was one of his main selling points coming out of UF. Believe he also had a 30+ PER as a sophomore.

PER by itself isn't a good way to evaluate a player, but PER with efficiency stats like eFT and TS% is very useful in evaluating a player. And both Collins's's' have very good efficiency numbers. Of course, there are other factors to consider - physical tools, strength of competition, etc.

[Ruzious]

I'm a little late to the Semi Ojeleye party (if there is one), but I think the Bucks need to consider him.

Semi Ojeleye of SMU posted an impressive 40.5 Max Vertical Leap (tied for fifth best), but perhaps the more significant numbers for him were the 10.58 seconds he posted in the lane agility testing and 3.16 seconds he posted in the three-quarter court sprint which rank third and eighth best overall respectively. Ojeleye weighed in at strong 241 pounds yesterday which he has proved is not too high of a number to compromise his athletic ability. He's a highly unique physical specimen, ranking in the 95th percentile or better in those three categories in our extensive database. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Semi-Ojeleye-7164/ ©DraftExpress

I had read reports that he was too slow to play the 3 and not a good enough defender to play the 4, so he's basically a tweener without a position. He can definitely play the NBA, and he should fit fine at the 3 - not to mention that having a guy like Giannis gives you all kinds of flexibility. As the writer alluded to, the key for him was doing so well in the lane agility test. That and his 40.5 vertical says he can guard people if he applies himself - which he frankly probably didn't do in college. He clearly spent a lot more energy on the offensive end, and that's gotta change in the NBA. Still, first and foremost, he was a high volume and efficient scorer with a big-time 3 point shot. And he did the athletic tests at 241 lbs, so eventually he's going to be able to matchup with the bigger athletic swing forwards in the NBA - such as George and an older Lebron and Melo. Bucks need to surround Giannis with shooters, and he is a shooter with potential that I think most people haven't given him credit for.

[Rockmaninoff]

Read on Twitter

Against my better judgement, I have a serious unrequited bromance with Luke Kennard.

I'm tempted to say, "F length and defense (and age), let's draft Kennard and Dorsey and bomb 3s all over the place".

[ReasonablySober]

I'm a little late to the Semi Ojeleye party (if there is one), but I think the Bucks need to consider him.

Semi Ojeleye of SMU posted an impressive 40.5 Max Vertical Leap (tied for fifth best), but perhaps the more significant numbers for him were the 10.58 seconds he posted in the lane agility testing and 3.16 seconds he posted in the three-quarter court sprint which rank third and eighth best overall respectively. Ojeleye weighed in at strong 241 pounds yesterday which he has proved is not too high of a number to compromise his athletic ability. He's a highly unique physical specimen, ranking in the 95th percentile or better in those three categories in our extensive database. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Semi-Ojeleye-7164/ ©DraftExpress

I had read reports that he was too slow to play the 3 and not a good enough defender to play the 4, so he's basically a tweener without a position. He can definitely play the NBA, and he should fit fine at the 3 - not to mention that having a guy like Giannis gives you all kinds of flexibility. As the writer alluded to, the key for him was doing so well in the lane agility test. That and his 40.5 vertical says he can guard people if he applies himself - which he frankly probably didn't do in college. He clearly spent a lot more energy on the offensive end, and that's gotta change in the NBA. Still, first and foremost, he was a high volume and efficient scorer with a big-time 3 point shot. And he did the athletic tests at 241 lbs, so eventually he's going to be able to matchup with the bigger athletic swing forwards in the NBA - such as George and an older Lebron and Melo. Bucks need to surround Giannis with shooters, and he is a shooter with potential that I think most people haven't given him credit for.

I like more than just about every other name I've seen floated around here.

[skones]

PER means nothing outside of boxscore production. Terrible way to shoot down a comparison and make a judgement on a player.

Also Speights' boxscore production was one of his main selling points coming out of UF. Believe he also had a 30+ PER as a sophomore.

PER by itself isn't a good way to evaluate a player, but PER with efficiency stats like eFT and TS% is very useful in evaluating a player. And both Collins's's' have very good efficiency numbers. Of course, there are other factors to consider - physical tools, strength of competition, etc.

It would be if we the knock on Collins was his offense. It never has been. He's Jabari on defense without the diversity on offense. That's an issue.

[midranger]

I'm just trying to think of recent "one for two" situations where a team traded back and ended up with both later picks being better than who was picked at their original slot, and all I can come up with is the Denver-Chicago trade in 2014 (McDermott for Nurkic + Gary Harris). The best bet is almost always to just take the most talented player with the higher pick.

Shabazz and Dieng for Trey Burke.

In fact, I can't think of a lot of these 2 for 1s that didn't work out that way.

Pretty sure the Mavs don't regret the 2 for 1 trade they made with us a while back.

[machu46]

Read on Twitter

Against my better judgement, I have a serious unrequited bromance with Luke Kennard.

I'm tempted to say, "F length and defense (and age), let's draft Kennard and Dorsey and bomb 3s all over the place".

I'm starting to warm up to Kennard a bit, but I think he likely sucks finishing around the rim in the NBA along with sucking on defense. Still, have him come off screens for jumpers and run a little pick and roll and you have a decent bench option.

Also Speights' boxscore production was one of his main selling points coming out of UF. Believe he also had a 30+ PER as a sophomore.

PER by itself isn't a good way to evaluate a player, but PER with efficiency stats like eFT and TS% is very useful in evaluating a player. And both Collins's's' have very good efficiency numbers. Of course, there are other factors to consider - physical tools, strength of competition, etc.

It would be if we the knock on Collins was his offense. It never has been. He's Jabari on defense without the diversity on offense. That's an issue.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think a lot of Collins' success rides on whether or not you feel he is what he is offensively. I see him shoot the ball, see his free throw shooting, see his efficiency in a limited sample size in college, see how well he shoots it in workouts and at the combine, and I think he at minimum will be a solid mid-range shooter in the NBA if not extending his range out to the 3 point line. Add in how good he is both in the post and in the pick and roll and you have a very diverse scorer. Add in how good a rebounder he is and you have a good NBA starter IMO. If he can turn his athleticism into being a decent defender at some point, that's just an added bonus.

[skones]

Read on Twitter

Against my better judgement, I have a serious unrequited bromance with Luke Kennard.

I'm tempted to say, "F length and defense (and age), let's draft Kennard and Dorsey and bomb 3s all over the place".

I'm starting to warm up to Kennard a bit, but I think he likely sucks finishing around the rim in the NBA along with sucking on defense. Still, have him come off screens for jumpers and run a little pick and roll and you have a decent bench option.

PER by itself isn't a good way to evaluate a player, but PER with efficiency stats like eFT and TS% is very useful in evaluating a player. And both Collins's's' have very good efficiency numbers. Of course, there are other factors to consider - physical tools, strength of competition, etc.

It would be if we the knock on Collins was his offense. It never has been. He's Jabari on defense without the diversity on offense. That's an issue.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think a lot of Collins' success rides on whether or not you feel he is what he is offensively. I see him shoot the ball, see his free throw shooting, see his efficiency in a limited sample size in college, see how well he shoots it in workouts and at the combine, and I think he at minimum will be a solid mid-range shooter in the NBA if not extending his range out to the 3 point line. Add in how good he is both in the post and in the pick and roll and you have a very diverse scorer. Add in how good a rebounder he is and you have a good NBA starter IMO. If he can turn his athleticism into being a decent defender at some point, that's just an added bonus.

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy. FWIW, I don't think a mid-range jumper for Collins cuts it. He either learns to shoot the three or he doesn't have a place in the league (a la Mo Speights).

[machu46]

Against my better judgement, I have a serious unrequited bromance with Luke Kennard.

I'm tempted to say, "F length and defense (and age), let's draft Kennard and Dorsey and bomb 3s all over the place".

I'm starting to warm up to Kennard a bit, but I think he likely sucks finishing around the rim in the NBA along with sucking on defense. Still, have him come off screens for jumpers and run a little pick and roll and you have a decent bench option.

It would be if we the knock on Collins was his offense. It never has been. He's Jabari on defense without the diversity on offense. That's an issue.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think a lot of Collins' success rides on whether or not you feel he is what he is offensively. I see him shoot the ball, see his free throw shooting, see his efficiency in a limited sample size in college, see how well he shoots it in workouts and at the combine, and I think he at minimum will be a solid mid-range shooter in the NBA if not extending his range out to the 3 point line. Add in how good he is both in the post and in the pick and roll and you have a very diverse scorer. Add in how good a rebounder he is and you have a good NBA starter IMO. If he can turn his athleticism into being a decent defender at some point, that's just an added bonus.

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy.

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

[HurricaneKid]

I'm starting to warm up to Kennard a bit, but I think he likely sucks finishing around the rim in the NBA along with sucking on defense. Still, have him come off screens for jumpers and run a little pick and roll and you have a decent bench option.



As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think a lot of Collins' success rides on whether or not you feel he is what he is offensively. I see him shoot the ball, see his free throw shooting, see his efficiency in a limited sample size in college, see how well he shoots it in workouts and at the combine, and I think he at minimum will be a solid mid-range shooter in the NBA if not extending his range out to the 3 point line. Add in how good he is both in the post and in the pick and roll and you have a very diverse scorer. Add in how good a rebounder he is and you have a good NBA starter IMO. If he can turn his athleticism into being a decent defender at some point, that's just an added bonus.

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy.

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

This is the list of 18/10 guys this year:

KAT
AD
KLove
Westbrook

If you think he is an 18/10 player you should expect to see him taken 1st overall.

I have seen some rosy projections here but this is the rosiest.

[skones]

I'm starting to warm up to Kennard a bit, but I think he likely sucks finishing around the rim in the NBA along with sucking on defense. Still, have him come off screens for jumpers and run a little pick and roll and you have a decent bench option.



As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think a lot of Collins' success rides on whether or not you feel he is what he is offensively. I see him shoot the ball, see his free throw shooting, see his efficiency in a limited sample size in college, see how well he shoots it in workouts and at the combine, and I think he at minimum will be a solid mid-range shooter in the NBA if not extending his range out to the 3 point line. Add in how good he is both in the post and in the pick and roll and you have a very diverse scorer. Add in how good a rebounder he is and you have a good NBA starter IMO. If he can turn his athleticism into being a decent defender at some point, that's just an added bonus.

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy.

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

For what reason?

[machu46]

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy.

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

This is the list of 18/10 guys this year:

KAT
AD
KLove
Westbrook

If you think he is an 18/10 player you should expect to see him taken 1st overall.

I have seen some rosy projections here but this is the rosiest.

Yes, this is why I have him so high in my rankings to begin with lol.

And of course we're talking about ceilings here. Not the most likely outcome.

I think he could be an 18/10 type guy. I wouldn't bet an awful lot on it actually happening but he's a very good talent IMO.


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[machu46]

I always viewed Jabari as a "special" offensive player. That's why I thought he could be a team positive. Unless you think Collins is going to be an elite scorer, I think he's best suited as an off the bench type guy.

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

For what reason?

I think he's a much better athlete for a PF, and unlike Jabari, he's at least shown flashes of being a shot blocker and appears to be a good rebounder.


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[HurricaneKid]

I don't think Collins has 25+ PPG scoring potential, but I think he could very well be an 18+/10+ guy on good efficiency and I still believe he has far more hope of becoming a passable defender than Jabari ever had.

This is the list of 18/10 guys this year:

KAT
AD
KLove
Westbrook

If you think he is an 18/10 player you should expect to see him taken 1st overall.

I have seen some rosy projections here but this is the rosiest.

Yes, this is why I have him so high in my rankings to begin with lol.

And of course we're talking about ceilings here. Not the most likely outcome.

I think he could be an 18/10 type guy. I wouldn't bet an awful lot on it actually happening but he's a very good talent IMO.


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"Ceiling" as in maybe he goes to meet someone in a laboratory and he is bitten by a spider...?

If you think he is capable of that then you should absolutely be singing his praises. Given the paucity of such players in the world and the likelihood he is available at pick 17-20, I don't think a great many people who are paid to evaluate talent agree with your assessment.

The fact that his height/reach ratios isn't good, that he used half his possessions in post up situations (that wouldn't exist for the Bucks), coupled with his poor vision (.28 asst:TO ratio???), poor results against UNC and FSU (read: NBA size) read as a flawed selection as everyone in this range appears to be.

I'm shocked as DSJs apparent drop and would love to see if there was any way we could scoop up the #9/10 pick should he fall that far. Outside of that, I'd just as soon rather have Dorsey/Hart/Mason/Morris type players that should be available mid 2nd.

[machu46]

This is the list of 18/10 guys this year:

KAT
AD
KLove
Westbrook

If you think he is an 18/10 player you should expect to see him taken 1st overall.

I have seen some rosy projections here but this is the rosiest.

Yes, this is why I have him so high in my rankings to begin with lol.

And of course we're talking about ceilings here. Not the most likely outcome.

I think he could be an 18/10 type guy. I wouldn't bet an awful lot on it actually happening but he's a very good talent IMO.


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"Ceiling" as in maybe he goes to meet someone in a laboratory and he is bitten by a spider...?

If you think he is capable of that then you should absolutely be singing his praises. Given the paucity of such players in the world and the likelihood he is available at pick 17-20, I don't think a great many people who are paid to evaluate talent agree with your assessment.

The fact that his height/reach ratios isn't good, that he used half his possessions in post up situations (that wouldn't exist for the Bucks), coupled with his poor vision (.28 asst:TO ratio???), poor results against UNC and FSU (read: NBA size) read as a flawed selection as everyone in this range appears to be.

I'm shocked as DSJs apparent drop and would love to see if there was any way we could scoop up the #9/10 pick should he fall that far. Outside of that, I'd just as soon rather have Dorsey/Hart/Mason/Morris type players that should be available mid 2nd.

I like DSJ a lot as well. I think I have him and Collins at #2 and 8 on my board (maybe 3 for DSJ, can't remember if I had Jackson ahead of him or not).

I think Collins is a good post scorer, but for me, it's that combined with the potential in the pick and roll and potentially shooting the ball that excites me. He didn't get to showcase those parts of his game enough at Wake, but I believe he was the most efficient roll man in the country and was also efficient on mid-range jumpers and free throws. He doesn't need to be a good passer in order to finish lobs and catch-and-shoot.

Edit: I do agree that I'm obviously higher on Collins than most, but I suspect he'll be taken somewhere in the back end of the lottery when it's all said and done.


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[HurricaneKid]

Yes, this is why I have him so high in my rankings to begin with lol.

And of course we're talking about ceilings here. Not the most likely outcome.

I think he could be an 18/10 type guy. I wouldn't bet an awful lot on it actually happening but he's a very good talent IMO.


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"Ceiling" as in maybe he goes to meet someone in a laboratory and he is bitten by a spider...?

If you think he is capable of that then you should absolutely be singing his praises. Given the paucity of such players in the world and the likelihood he is available at pick 17-20, I don't think a great many people who are paid to evaluate talent agree with your assessment.

The fact that his height/reach ratios isn't good, that he used half his possessions in post up situations (that wouldn't exist for the Bucks), coupled with his poor vision (.28 asst:TO ratio???), poor results against UNC and FSU (read: NBA size) read as a flawed selection as everyone in this range appears to be.

I'm shocked as DSJs apparent drop and would love to see if there was any way we could scoop up the #9/10 pick should he fall that far. Outside of that, I'd just as soon rather have Dorsey/Hart/Mason/Morris type players that should be available mid 2nd.

I like DSJ a lot as well. I think I have him and Collins at #2 and 8 on my board (maybe 3 for DSJ, can't remember if I had Jackson ahead of him or not).

I think Collins is a good post scorer, but for me, it's that combined with the potential in the pick and roll and potentially shooting the ball that excites me. He didn't get to showcase those parts of his game enough at Wake, but I believe he was the most efficient roll man in the country and was also efficient on mid-range jumpers and free throws. He doesn't need to be a good passer in order to finish lobs and catch-and-shoot.


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I don't hate Collins. He just doesn't appear special in my estimation. I hate it when guys get swallowed up against other NBA caliber prospects. And that is what happened when he played FSU - Isaac (2 pts, 3 reb, 2 TOs and 4 fouls) and UNC Meeks/Bradley/Hicks (6 points, 3 Rebs).

He does offensive rebound and get to the line. I suppose that is something.

[Ruzious]

Also Speights' boxscore production was one of his main selling points coming out of UF. Believe he also had a 30+ PER as a sophomore.

PER by itself isn't a good way to evaluate a player, but PER with efficiency stats like eFT and TS% is very useful in evaluating a player. And both Collins's's' have very good efficiency numbers. Of course, there are other factors to consider - physical tools, strength of competition, etc.

It would be if we the knock on Collins was his offense. It never has been. He's Jabari on defense without the diversity on offense. That's an issue.

I agree. All stats should be used along with a scouting report and other information. Any stat by itself won't give you a full picture of a player.

[Ruzious]

"Ceiling" as in maybe he goes to meet someone in a laboratory and he is bitten by a spider...?

If you think he is capable of that then you should absolutely be singing his praises. Given the paucity of such players in the world and the likelihood he is available at pick 17-20, I don't think a great many people who are paid to evaluate talent agree with your assessment.

The fact that his height/reach ratios isn't good, that he used half his possessions in post up situations (that wouldn't exist for the Bucks), coupled with his poor vision (.28 asst:TO ratio???), poor results against UNC and FSU (read: NBA size) read as a flawed selection as everyone in this range appears to be.

I'm shocked as DSJs apparent drop and would love to see if there was any way we could scoop up the #9/10 pick should he fall that far. Outside of that, I'd just as soon rather have Dorsey/Hart/Mason/Morris type players that should be available mid 2nd.

I like DSJ a lot as well. I think I have him and Collins at #2 and 8 on my board (maybe 3 for DSJ, can't remember if I had Jackson ahead of him or not).

I think Collins is a good post scorer, but for me, it's that combined with the potential in the pick and roll and potentially shooting the ball that excites me. He didn't get to showcase those parts of his game enough at Wake, but I believe he was the most efficient roll man in the country and was also efficient on mid-range jumpers and free throws. He doesn't need to be a good passer in order to finish lobs and catch-and-shoot.


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I don't hate Collins. He just doesn't appear special in my estimation. I hate it when guys get swallowed up against other NBA caliber prospects. And that is what happened when he played FSU - Isaac (2 pts, 3 reb, 2 TOs and 4 fouls) and UNC Meeks/Bradley/Hicks (6 points, 3 Rebs).

He does offensive rebound and get to the line. I suppose that is something.

Was he even matched up against Isaac? I'm not going to look up who he played each game, but he did have a huge game against Duke - with Jefferson covering him most of the game. Jefferson might not be an NBA player, but as a long defensive-minded senior, he was a better college player as a senior than Isaac was as a frosh. The UNC game was right before his streak of 12 straight 20 plus point games. In every single one of those games, he shot over 50% - except one where he made 9 of 19 and had 14 rebounds (9 offensive - doing a Moses Malone thing that game).

Do I think Collins would be a good fit for Milwaukee? No. I want 3 point shooters around Giannis, and the next best quality is outstanding defenders. Collins doesn't fit that bill. And I see him as a PF - which is probably where you want Giannis defending. If the Bucks go big, I want Tony Bradley. Notice draftexpress recently moved Bradley from 42 to 32. Watch them continue sliding him up. He's not a great shot-blocker, but he's a very large and long body that can discourage offensive players. But right now, I'd lean toward a shooter - Ojeleye. Hopefully get one of Hart, Mason, or Morris in the 2nd round. If they could get another high 2nd rounder, and steal one of the bigs - like Bell - that'd be ideal.

[midranger]

Any reason Collins couldn't be Carlos Boozer?