Giannis Thread - 13th Season with the Bucks

[Licensed to Il]

Lol, absolutely worthless list. KD has really gaslit an entire generation of basketball fans into believing aesthetic = peak greatness. There isn't a serious argument for him and half of the guys in their 10-20 range over Giannis anymore (Baylor and Malone lulz). Like mnost of these lists, they always massively overrate longevity.

The KD one really stood out. Rings are not created equally and have trouble with him in the Bakers Dozen.

Which Malone do you have an issue with? I don't think either above Giannis is Lolz-worthy, though could see Giannis above either.

Karl - Two MVPs, 11 All-NBA 1st Team selections, 14 All-Stars, three All-Defensive 1st Team selections - Not too dissimilar from Giannis. Would have a ring as well if Jordan wasn't Jordan. He has 2 Finals and 1 ECF appearance, so it translated a bit to team success

Moses - One NBA title, one Finals MVP, three MVPs, eight All-NBA selections, 12 All-Stars, two All-Defensive Team selections - Again not too dissimilar and both Malones have the longevity as a tie-breaker.

I think this is the interesting part of the debate. Karl Malone was way better than most remember, solid defender and elite at scoring and rebounding. Carried a franchise for over a decade. Worthy of respect as a great player. But Karl’s peak was not as good as Giannis’. Karl could not have guarded GA. GA could have given Karl’s shooting trouble, with his length. Karl never led his team to a title. Giannis deserves the nod for us being able to say “he was the best player on a title team.” Obviously if the discussion favors stats, Karl is an all timer stat guy. But that values “doing something good for a long time” which is not necessarily the same as being an all time most dominant player.

[Ron Swanson]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

The KD stuff is absolutely baffling. It's like the media felt bad that he got so much **** for joining Golden State, that they've over corrected to an even more extreme and comical degree. His resume on paper (one MVP, two titles, 6x All-NBA 1st teams) isn't even worthy of Top-15 credentials, and that's before we even contextualize how he "earned" those two rings. Dude is tracking to be the most prolific, "unearned legacy credit" superstar of all-time, and that's saying something when guys like Pippen and Isaiah Thomas are Top-30 in both these lists...

[Sigra]

Right now I have Giannis in top 20 ever. But, I am sure when he retires everybody (me included) will have him in top 15 firmly.

[Licensed to Il]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

The KD stuff is absolutely baffling. It's like the media felt bad that he got so much **** for joining Golden State, that they've over corrected to an even more extreme and comical degree. His resume on paper (one MVP, two titles, 6x All-NBA 1st teams) isn't even worthy of Top-15 credentials, and that's before we even contextualize how he "earned" those two rings. Dude is tracking to be the most prolific, "unearned legacy credit" superstar of all-time, and that's saying something when guys like Pippen and Isaiah Thomas are Top-30 in both these lists...

I hate Isaiah Thomas with red hot passion. But he led two title teams and was a legit top 2 PG of his generation. Im not sure a lot of people over rate him in the sense I’ve never heard anyone put him in an all time top 30. I certainly don’t include him on any top 30 list. But he was the best PG in the east for a decade.

Pippen is an interesting discussion. I think he was a top ten in the league guy from 92-98, perhaps even as high as 4-5. He deserved mvp the first year MJ retired, but the media didn’t really know what to do with the team’s success without MJ. He was the best wing defender in his era, could score inside and out, and was an amazing passer. Six rings (but usually as the second best player on the court). I don’t consider him all time top 30. Id start thinking about him around 30, between 30 and 50 for sure, he was so versatile.

Another factor is those two are probably among the all time pricks in league history. So that doesn’t belp their causes.

I definitely agree Durant is not belonging in any top 30 all time list. I like his game, but he is a little Pippen-ish in that he was never the top player on a title team. And both are salty AF

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

Karl Malone had a 13-year run where he was Top 8 in MVP (9 at Top 5). He won 2 in an era with Jordan, Shaq, Robinson. He has 3 first team all-defense. He was a Jordan jumper away from having more playoff success than Giannis (Or if KD stepped 2 inches back, would we even be having this convo?). I'm not here saying Malone was better than Giannis, but to say someone having Karl Malone ahead of Giannis is laughable ....is well laughable. These guys are on the same tier where they dominated their era and one of only 15 players with multiple MVPs. Being compared to karl malone is not an insult .... well at least on the court.

[Ron Swanson]

Yes, thinking Karl Malone was at any point a better basketball player than peak/prime Giannis is laughable. I stand by that 100%. Malone was notoriously the opposite of a playoff riser. Even removing Jordan, he never had a serious argument for being a Top-2 player in the league. Giannis has as many Top-3 MVP finishes in the last 6-years as Malone did in his entire career (5). Again, this overrating of longevity stats is precisely my gripe with these kinds of lists. This isn't baseball. Al freaking Jefferson was Top-8 in MVP voting not too long ago. Who really cares?

[Licensed to Il]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

Karl Malone had a 13-year run where he was Top 8 in MVP (9 at Top 5). He won 2 in an era with Jordan, Shaq, Robinson. He has 3 first team all-defense. He was a Jordan jumper away from having more playoff success than Giannis (Or if KD stepped 2 inches back, would we even be having this convo?). I'm not here saying Malone was better than Giannis, but to say someone having Karl Malone ahead of Giannis is laughable ....is well laughable. These guys are on the same tier where they dominated their era and one of only 15 players with multiple MVPs. Being compared to karl malone is not an insult .... well at least on the court.

I think your defense of Karl is warranted. But don’t you agree that GA does more for his team than Karl? Like if you were picking in a draft, I think 10 of 10 GMs are talking Giannis before Karl (who is a great player in his own right). Also, the “one jump shot, foot on the line, etc” is fine but Giannis DID win a title as best player and Karl didn’t. That is not nothing.

[FrieAaron]

Also worth noting that Malone's #2 was a 10-time all-star himself and near MVP level player himself.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Yes, thinking Karl Malone was at any point a better basketball player than peak/prime Giannis is laughable. I stand by that 100%. Malone was notoriously the opposite of a playoff riser. Even removing Jordan, he never had a serious argument for being a Top-2 player in the league. Giannis has as many Top-3 MVP finishes in the last 6-years as Malone did in his entire career (5). Again, this overrating of longevity stats is precisely my gripe with these kinds of lists. This isn't baseball. Al freaking Jefferson was Top-8 in MVP voting not too long ago. Who really cares?

Am I missing something? He was league MVP 2x, finished 2nd a third, and two other seasons 3rd.....and you are bringing up an outlier like Al Jefferson's peak to pooh-pooh? Fine. ignore top 8 and say top 3 and at this point it was pretty equal. (5* for Giannis; 5 for Malone). This isn't Joe Johnson where he scored a bunch of points over 20 years.

Again, I'm preferring Giannis (I do, too). But their peaks are close enough (Giannis's was better) that I really dont see much difference in resume. Giannis slightly better peak, while Malone has longevity stats. Malone was an absolute iron man and was healthy in the playoffs, and that matters.

ETA: I think Giannis eventually separates himself from Malone with a few more peak years. I am just comparing current resumes and not peaks/potential, otherwise we would have Bill Walton a lot higher on these lists.

[jakecronus8]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

Identical career/resume, probably the same. Difference is he would have gotten a few more all-NBA side kicks. Pretty much all of the Top 15 guys had another top 25 guy. Giannis with 2 additional rings is a top 12 player for sure instead of 17-24 range.

Jordan/Pippen
Magic/Kareem
Lebron/Wade/AD/Ky
Curry/KD
Shaq/Wade/Kobe
Kobe/Shaq/Gasol
Russell (different league and I'm a bit of a Bill Russell-truther; what were there like 8 teams?)
Wilt/West
Duncan/Robinson
Bird/McHale

[PG Graveyard]

I'll be that guy and ask, if Giannis had an identical career as a Laker or Knick, where do the "experts" put him all time?

If he ever gets traded he will immediately move up 10 spots for reasons.

[emunney]

Yeah, we have a good 6-year, prime MVP level play type run of Giannis now to know that guys like KD, both Malones, Dirk, Barkley, and any of the offense-first guys outside of Magic/Jokic/Oscar (offensive GOAT tier) just don't have a serious case at being a better or more impactful player than a guy who's one of the greatest scorers ever combined with DPOTY defensive impact.

The KD stuff is absolutely baffling. It's like the media felt bad that he got so much **** for joining Golden State, that they've over corrected to an even more extreme and comical degree. His resume on paper (one MVP, two titles, 6x All-NBA 1st teams) isn't even worthy of Top-15 credentials, and that's before we even contextualize how he "earned" those two rings. Dude is tracking to be the most prolific, "unearned legacy credit" superstar of all-time, and that's saying something when guys like Pippen and Isaiah Thomas are Top-30 in both these lists...

I hate Isaiah Thomas with red hot passion. But he led two title teams and was a legit top 2 PG of his generation. Im not sure a lot of people over rate him in the sense I’ve never heard anyone put him in an all time top 30. I certainly don’t include him on any top 30 list. But he was the best PG in the east for a decade.

Pippen is an interesting discussion. I think he was a top ten in the league guy from 92-98, perhaps even as high as 4-5. He deserved mvp the first year MJ retired, but the media didn’t really know what to do with the team’s success without MJ. He was the best wing defender in his era, could score inside and out, and was an amazing passer. Six rings (but usually as the second best player on the court). I don’t consider him all time top 30. Id start thinking about him around 30, between 30 and 50 for sure, he was so versatile.

Another factor is those two are probably among the all time pricks in league history. So that doesn’t belp their causes.

I definitely agree Durant is not belonging in any top 30 all time list. I like his game, but he is a little Pippen-ish in that he was never the top player on a title team. And both are salty AF

I think Durant has a case for being the best player on his title teams. I'm not going to prosecute it even if I'm sympathetic to the argument. I think the fact that he joined a 73 win team as a free agent, though, definitely discounts those rings for him in a way that, oddly or not, it doesn't for Steph.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I think Durant has a case for being the best player on his title teams. I'm not going to prosecute it even if I'm sympathetic to the argument. I think the fact that he joined a 73 win team as a free agent, though, definitely discounts those rings for him in a way that, oddly or not, it doesn't for Steph.

I think you can discount the rings for Curry, as well. The difference is Curry has 2 other Rings as the best player and 2 MVPs. I really dont get why KD is usually above Steph in these rankings when the counting stats are close enough and Curry has been more impactful.

[Licensed to Il]

I realize this reply is not airtight logic, but I perceive most people would draft Steph over Durant, if given a rookie version of each, and knowing all we know. Which is telling in the sense that Durant has more physical tools.

They certainly are both among the top five shooters, and its hard to downgrade either in any offensive category.

[emunney]

I realize this reply is not airtight logic, but I perceive most people would draft Steph over Durant, if given a rookie version of each, and knowing all we know. Which is telling in the sense that Durant has more physical tools.

They certainly are both among the top five shooters, and its hard to downgrade either in any offensive category.

I think you're probably right, and I probably would too. It might not be fair, but in a draft knowing all we now know, one of the things we now know is that KD's about to lace 'em up for his 5th franchise.

[BigO]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Any rating, whether by posters or media, is meaningless if the individual didn't watch the players they are rating.

You don't have to have seen the players in person or even been in their generation, but you should have watched their past games extensively if you are going to have the chutzpah to rate them.

Just looking at championships or all star games is not enough.

Big O and Jerry West have to be in the top 5 or 6.

If you want to rate players who played since 1980 or 1990, that's fair.

Hold up ..... Are you saying Oscar and Jerry are 2 of the Top 6 players of all time?

[Sigra]

Karl Malone > Giannis

Sorry

[AussieBuck]

Karl Malone > Giannis

Sorry

I'm sorry you're this lonely.

You know we're a community here, we can talk without you provoking it with something stupid right ?