ATL - 20-21 Season Begins

[ShootingtheJ]

I seriously come here just for the PP stalking/detective work.

If you want to absolve the Lasry’s and Horst of screwing this up, it becomes essentially impossible based on this paragraph from the article:

“All players included within the trade framework were notified, sources said. Over the next two days, one Bucks player and his girlfriend were already searching for new homes in Northern California. A real-estate agent even visited one of the properties and sent pictures of the interior”

There is a fine line between being transparent with your players (in an effort to be a player/agent friendly club) and completely botching the secrecy of a deal that needed to be kept secret. As Tim MacMahon said, the Bucks elected to color outside the free agents lines with spray paint versus a crayon.

All true, and yet, in the end, we could come out lucky. I could see Edens and Dinan using this to completely oust Larry, which would be a huge positive. All while the Bucks keep the the best player moved in the alleged deal in DDV.

[Mtsportsfan]

Man , after reading all this how does Horst have a job still ? I have been a bucks fan since the early 70's and gone through alot of ups and downs. But this absolutely a s##t show. Thought that the new owners would be a upgrade over Kohl , not looking like it. Horst needs to be let go , can't have this many mistakes , especially being a small market team that's not exactly a free agent destination. Lasry needs to go too, for being a financial wiz , he's a bleeping idiot! Someone needs to start a fire Horst thread or another billboard campaign.

[Matches Malone]

Man , after reading all this how does Horst have a job still ? I have been a bucks fan since the early 70's and gone through alot of ups and downs. But this absolutely a s##t show. Thought that the new owners would be a upgrade over Kohl , not looking like it. Horst needs to be let go , can't have this many mistakes , especially being a small market team that's not exactly a free agent destination. Lasry needs to go too, for being a financial wiz , he's a bleeping idiot! Someone needs to start a fire Horst thread or another billboard campaign.

I wonder if this would have still played out the same way if Edens was still majority Governor of the team.

[paulpressey25]

All true, and yet, in the end, we could come out lucky. I could see Edens and Dinan using this to completely oust Larry, which would be a huge positive. All while the Bucks keep the the best player moved in the alleged deal in DDV.

Sounds like a fantastic idea. Unfortunately do not see it happening.

[buckbeer]

I wish billionaires bought the Brewers, the Bucks owners are much more willing to spend big on payroll to win a championship, while the Brewers won't be spending much and may even be reducing their payroll for next season.

The Brewers owner Mark Attanasio should change his name to Mark Scrooge, it has been quite depressing being a Brewers fan.

Milwaukee's payroll regularly outranks their market size but they are handicapped by being the smallest market in a league where there is no salary cap. It doesn't matter who the owner is, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees or Dodgers in payroll.

Don't make excuses for him. Demographically, it's a top 15 market. It doesn't matter how many people live in your region, it's how many people in your region have money to spend on your product. Its the exact reason he bought the team.

Totally unacceptable that we can't even have the same payroll as the Cardinals, how are we suppose to win our division, much less the world series?

The Bucks billionaires are far more interested in doing what it takes to win a championship, they are not as concern about the bottomline as the cheap Brewers owner.

Last season may be a financial lost due to covid, but the Brewers owner had made substantial profits for many previous seasons, and the team value has gone up massively since he bought the team, he's sitting on a huge paper profit from his investment, as well as collecting dividends and director fees.

Seems like the Brewers owner is treating the team more like a money making machine, rather than doing what it takes to win a championship for the fans.

[MVP2110]

Milwaukee's payroll regularly outranks their market size but they are handicapped by being the smallest market in a league where there is no salary cap. It doesn't matter who the owner is, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees or Dodgers in payroll.

Don't make excuses for him. Demographically, it's a top 15 market. It doesn't matter how many people live in your region, it's how many people in your region have money to spend on your product. Its the exact reason he bought the team.

Totally unacceptable that we can't even have the same payroll as the Cardinals, how are we suppose to win our division, much less the world series?

The Bucks billionaires are far more interested in doing what it takes to win a championship, they are not as concern about the bottomline as the cheap Brewers owner.

Last season may be a financial lost due to covid, but the Brewers owner had made substantial profits for many previous seasons, and the team value has gone up massively since he bought the team, he's sitting on a huge paper profit from his investment, as well as collecting dividends and director fees.

Seems like the Brewers owner is treating the team more like a money making machine, rather than doing what it takes to win a championship for the fans.

I'll take Mark A over Lasry/Edens any day. Maybe the payroll isn't where you want it to be but Mark A is smart enough to hire one of the best GMs in the league, promote him to POBO so he doesn't leave, and not leak anything out ahead of time. The Brewers are constantly creative in how they use their resources and have one of the most respected front offices in the league. That starts with the owner.

[stellation]

How can we sabotage Pat Riley and the Heat?

Watch on YouTube

[SupremeHustle]

Spoiler:

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

I would argue that there's a much more sinister motive to these so-called mistakes and misjudgments, and that is avoiding the luxury tax while being able to make excuses that they aren't allowed to spend that much. Stretching Leuer and waiving Hill to re-sign him were done in order to go way under the cap to pay Brook, whose Bird Rights they didn't have, more than the MLE. However, there's not much evidence that they had to pay Brook that much, and it was a little too convenient that they had to pay him the exact amount that allowed them to sign-and-trade Brogdon but not to match offers (that's the difference between his QO and his cap hold). It also left them with just the room MLE and no chance of going into the tax even if they wanted to. And they had Bird Rights to everyone else, so they could have spent the full MLE and gone all the way up to the tax apron without those moves. The risk was losing Brook to a team paying him more than MLE, but his options were limited because of all the great players who were changing teams and eating up cap space.

What I'm saying is, if you accept the premise that they're really just trying to dodge the tax without being obvious about it, then you start to realize that they actually are great are managing the cap for that purpose. I'm also arguing that fitting Brook under the cap, instead of hoping to get him with the MLE, was a very costly gamble because they could have had Hill's bird rights and re-signed him much cheaper and they would have had Leuer's expiring deal as well. That's before you even consider the fact that they would have had a chance to use the MLE on someone else or match the offer for Brogdon if Brook hadn't re-signed. And technically I think they could have paid a lot of tax for just one year to match Brogdon's even after giving the Brook MLE. So it's actually kind of astounding that they did it the way they did, unless you're 100% sure Brook demanded his current deal. (I seem to recall you and Luessi and I didn't even want to give him the full MLE.)

The longer we go without someone getting fired (even if it is a scapegoat) the more I will believe this hypothesis.

[StickeeFingaz]

Take a look at the Knicks roster if you want a good laugh.

[GoldenAntlers]

Take a look at the Knicks roster if you want a good laugh.

Ooftah.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Take a look at the Knicks roster if you want a good laugh.

The biggest mistake they made this off-season was not grabbing at least a guy like Augustin to stabilize the PG spot. I don't love their young prospects but they especially have no shot to develop if you don't have someone capable running an offense. It is especially dumb considering both Robinson and Obi need someone capable of running a P&R.

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[Jez2983]

Did we talk about how Thon got another deal? Shocking.

[MickeyDavis]

Did we talk about how Thon got another deal? Shocking.

Just a camp deal.

[bucksbrewers3]

Take a look at the Knicks roster if you want a good laugh.

We might have signed the best player off the roster.

[Jez2983]

Did we talk about how Thon got another deal? Shocking.

Just a camp deal.

I stand by my comment

[tydett]

The biggest place where a small market team can make a difference from the LA/NY types is in paying a lot of money for its support staff. Hiring a guy like Morey may cost you $9-10 million more than Horst a year, but he's gonna turn over every rock to find every advantage possible in the margins. You don't have a salary cap on front office personnel, so you don't have to pay luxury tax on them. Same with coaching. Bud is a good coach (if not great) so you need to splurge to keep him. Continuing to let Horst play in the kiddie pool while sharks swim around the league is actively hamstringing the team in one area where you can justify spending for a competitive advantage.

[BJ Sandered]

Did we talk about how Thon got another deal? Shocking.

I'll gladly take credit for bringing Thon to the Cavs into existence. 2K baby.

[MickeyDavis]

The biggest place where a small market team can make a difference from the LA/NY types is in paying a lot of money for its support staff. Hiring a guy like Morey may cost you $9-10 million more than Horst a year, but he's gonna turn over every rock to find every advantage possible in the margins. You don't have a salary cap on front office personnel, so you don't have to pay luxury tax on them. Same with coaching. Bud is a good coach (if not great) so you need to splurge to keep him. Continuing to let Horst play in the kiddie pool while sharks swim around the league is actively hamstringing the team in one area where you can justify spending for a competitive advantage.

Well said. The right front office makes a huge difference. The Brewers, in a no salary cap league and being massively outspent, have stayed competitive with David Stearns running things. We need a POBO and/or top notch GM. We have neither.

[Licensed to Il]

The biggest place where a small market team can make a difference from the LA/NY types is in paying a lot of money for its support staff. Hiring a guy like Morey may cost you $9-10 million more than Horst a year, but he's gonna turn over every rock to find every advantage possible in the margins. You don't have a salary cap on front office personnel, so you don't have to pay luxury tax on them. Same with coaching. Bud is a good coach (if not great) so you need to splurge to keep him. Continuing to let Horst play in the kiddie pool while sharks swim around the league is actively hamstringing the team in one area where you can justify spending for a competitive advantage.

Well said. The right front office makes a huge difference. The Brewers, in a no salary cap league and being massively outspent, have stayed competitive with David Stearns running things. We need a POBO and/or top notch GM. We have neither.

This is why the arrogance of Lasry and Edens is so pernicious. They honestly believe their influence and input is better for the team and their investment than empowering a basketball expert.

[M-C-G]

Spoiler:

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

I would argue that there's a much more sinister motive to these so-called mistakes and misjudgments, and that is avoiding the luxury tax while being able to make excuses that they aren't allowed to spend that much. Stretching Leuer and waiving Hill to re-sign him were done in order to go way under the cap to pay Brook, whose Bird Rights they didn't have, more than the MLE. However, there's not much evidence that they had to pay Brook that much, and it was a little too convenient that they had to pay him the exact amount that allowed them to sign-and-trade Brogdon but not to match offers (that's the difference between his QO and his cap hold). It also left them with just the room MLE and no chance of going into the tax even if they wanted to. And they had Bird Rights to everyone else, so they could have spent the full MLE and gone all the way up to the tax apron without those moves. The risk was losing Brook to a team paying him more than MLE, but his options were limited because of all the great players who were changing teams and eating up cap space.

What I'm saying is, if you accept the premise that they're really just trying to dodge the tax without being obvious about it, then you start to realize that they actually are great are managing the cap for that purpose. I'm also arguing that fitting Brook under the cap, instead of hoping to get him with the MLE, was a very costly gamble because they could have had Hill's bird rights and re-signed him much cheaper and they would have had Leuer's expiring deal as well. That's before you even consider the fact that they would have had a chance to use the MLE on someone else or match the offer for Brogdon if Brook hadn't re-signed. And technically I think they could have paid a lot of tax for just one year to match Brogdon's even after giving the Brook MLE. So it's actually kind of astounding that they did it the way they did, unless you're 100% sure Brook demanded his current deal. (I seem to recall you and Luessi and I didn't even want to give him the full MLE.)

The longer we go without someone getting fired (even if it is a scapegoat) the more I will believe this hypothesis.

I’ve considered the same, though CHL put a lot more thought into it. I have suspected they want to publicly say they will go into tax but realistically they aren’t doing it until Giannis is on extension.

That said, if that is the case, we may actually have a cap guru on this management team because they have tap danced around the tax despite tons of motion going on.


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