Should John Hammond be fired? (WAUK- Homer update page 56)

[LUKE23]

I guess it comes down to how much you want to give credit to the coach for defense. I mean, once players get to the NBA they already know how to play D, so all the coach is really doing is holding them accountable. For that reason I think the credit for a solid defensive team should go to the GM just as much (or perhaps more so) as the coach as it's as much about the roster than anything.

Give Skiles the 07-08 Bucks team with Redd, Mo, Sessions, CV, Yi, Bobby Simmons & a 23 year old Bogut and lets so what he get out of that defensively. Hammond got rid of all of the offensively minded players and replaced them for the most part with defensive players. Our D rating went up and last year we won 46 games. It's not as though Skiles suddenly got the guys to start playing D.

I couldn't disagree more. I believe coaching has a huge impact on D, primarily because some coaches demand (and get) accountability/effort, and some do not. Skiles had a strong track record coming in, and the defensive changes were immediate. I believe he would have had the 2007-08 Bucks in the top 10 in defense.

Basically, I feel defense is obviously some personnel, but you can also add a lot to it just by effort/coaching accountability. On offense, you can't just effort or will yourself to great O, you need players that can get it done.

The bottom line is that last year, we were in the 18ish range (just ballparking it) offensively when we actually had a wing that can make shots. This year, that player, for whatever reason has decided to give little effort and brick wide open shot after wide open shot. That is in addition to Bogut's injury and him going into a complete shell offensively. Maggette scored about the same as he does career, but he's horrible for chemistry. Gooden was inefficient, but he always is. Delfino was around his career norm. Jennings improved slightly.

So unless people feel Skiles is to blame for Salmons and Bogut's play, I'm not seeing it. This is a bad offensive roster. We NEED a dynamic, all-star caliber wing player.

[LUKE23]

Here are the TS of our guys this year (career):

Maggette: .572 (.581)
Brockman: .567 (.565)
Boykins: .522 (.516)
Moute: .521 (.522)
CDR: .517 (.517)
Delfino: .517 (.514)
Dooling: .515 (.516)
Ilyasova: .513 (.516)
Salmons: .505 (.540)
Bogut: .496 (.540)
Jennings: .490 (.482)
Gooden: .488 (.518)

Bolded ones are the only significant drops. So I want to know how Skiles is to blame for those three players specifically.

[ReasonablySober]

I don't particularly care whether he stays or goes.

[Sigra]

So unless people feel Skiles is to blame for Salmons and Bogut's play, I'm not seeing it. This is a bad offensive roster. We NEED a dynamic, all-star caliber wing player.

You are crazy. Do you understand that we are the WORST offensive team in NBA this year. Nodody here expect us to be #1 offense with those players but #30? PLEASE.

You compare our roster with Miami roster or Spurs roster or Denver roster or OKC roster or LAL roster or Mavs roster or Bulls roster. And then you say "look we don't have offensive talent".

But that is not point. Don't compare our offensive talent with elite offensive teams. Compare us with bad teams who are still better than us at offense. The Cavs are better than us at offense for God's sake. THE CAVS. Team of D League players. Samuels, Gee, Eyenga, Harris, Graham, Hollins, Moon, Erden, Harangody, Parker, Varejao (for 31 games), Sessions, Mo (injured while there), JJ Hickson. THEY PLAY BETTER OFFENSE THAN BUCKS THIS YEAR. Now read that 100 times if you need. Then you have Nets, Wizards, Bobcats, Minnesota teams that tanked most of the season. All better than Bucks at offense.

Skiles is terrible offensive coach. Probably worst in NBA.

[LUKE23]

Please address how Skiles is to blame for Salmons, Bogut, and Gooden's play. Everyone else is around their career norm.

[Sigra]

One on one is not the only way that you can score in NBA. You will learn that one day. If you think we have play any team offense at all then you didn't watch Bucks this year.

Skiles one on one offense was passable last year when Bogut had to be double teamed and when Salmons and Ridnour played for contract. But this year we see how bad of caoch he really is. Now that he lost that one on one options (for diferent reasons) he is 100% uncapable to form any kind of offense. it is terrible and you live in denial if you don't see that.

[LUKE23]

One on one is not the only way that you can score in NBA. You will learn that one day. If you think we have play any team offense at all then you didn't watch Bucks this year.

Skiles one on one offense was passable last year when Bogut had to be double teamed and when Salmons and Ridnour played for contract. But this year we see how bad of caoch he really is. Now that he lost that one on one options (for diferent reasons) he is 100% uncapable to form any kind of offense. it is terrible and you live in denial if you don't see that.

Who said anything about "one on one". I'm talking about players normal efficiency, meaning how well they shoot, get to the line, etc. You're the one not addressing the point here. Tell me please how Skiles is to blame for Bogut, Salmons, and Gooden's poor play this year.

[rilamann]

Please address how Skiles is to blame for Salmons, Bogut, and Gooden's play. Everyone else is around their career norm.

Come on Luke,everyone knows that when your SG shoots 39% on the season because he can't consistiently knock down an open jumper it's the coach's fault.

[lawrybeard]

Lets look at it from a different angle. Roster stays exactly as is, other than Redd being canned. If Skiles were to be fired and we bring in random coach x who is a middle of the road offensive & defensive coach, what do you think happens to our defensive rating next year? Providing we have Bogut & Moute out there I can't see it dropping past 5th. Assuming you agree, what exaclty is Skiles giving us?

I don't even look at efg% or ts% when I look at how good our team is offensively - I just watch a game or two. It's not about hitting or missing open shots, it's the abismal sets that are being run over and over again. There is pretty much no variation in our offense for 48 minutes. There are no adjustments. When a play doesn't work he subs people out, as though its the players making errors. It's predictable and pathetic.

[LUKE23]

Lets look at it from a different angle. Roster stays exactly as is, other than Redd being canned. If Skiles were to be fired and we bring in random coach x who is a middle of the road offensive & defensive coach, what do you think happens to our defensive rating next year? Providing we have Bogut & Moute out there I can't see it dropping past 5th.

It would depend on what coach it was. Considering we were 30th in defense with 3rd year Bogut (who is by far our most important defensive player now), there is no way that I agree we'd be top 5 regardless of who was hired. If we hired someone like Thibodeau, yes. But not any coach.

Skiles developed Bogut's D to the point where none of his other coaches even came close.

[Sigra]

Who said anything about "one on one". I'm talking about players normal efficiency, meaning how well they shoot, get to the line, etc.

Ummm yes, players shoot better when they are more open. They are more open when they play in offensive system that makes them open. They go to the line more if they play in good offensive system as well.

Tell me please how Skiles is to blame for Bogut, Salmons, and Gooden's poor play this year.

His offense force them to play one on one 99% of posesions. That produce bad numbers for everybody. And that is true for any basketball team. Teams that play like team and have good offensive sets allow their players to be open more. In that kind of teams you have more easy baskets, more FT attempts and more ball movement.

Skiles teams are not that kind of teams. And that has been true whereever he was. Phoenix, Chicago, Milwaukee. Diferent players but always bad offenses. If he has better one on one players the offense will be better but sill never top 15. He is terrible offensive coach. Always was.

[LUKE23]

His offense force them to play one on one 99% of posesions. That produce bad numbers for everybody. And that is true for any basketball team. Teams that play like team and have good offensive sets allow their players to be open more. In that kind of teams you have more easy baskets, more FT attempts and more ball movement.

So what happened last year running the same offense, when Bogut was healthy and Salmons was shooting well (and playing for a contract)? Oh......

[lawrybeard]

Lets look at it from a different angle. Roster stays exactly as is, other than Redd being canned. If Skiles were to be fired and we bring in random coach x who is a middle of the road offensive & defensive coach, what do you think happens to our defensive rating next year? Providing we have Bogut & Moute out there I can't see it dropping past 5th.

It would depend on what coach it was. Considering we were 30th in defense with 3rd year Bogut (who is by far our most important defensive player now), there is no way that I agree we'd be top 5 regardless of who was hired. If we hired someone like Thibodeau, yes. But not any coach.

Skiles developed Bogut's D to the point where none of his other coaches even came close.

Just to confirm: Skiles, a PG who was one of the worst defensive players in the league throughout his career, has developed Bogut's D to where it is today?

[Sigra]

I don't even look at efg% or ts% when I look at how good our team is offensively - I just watch a game or two. It's not about hitting or missing open shots, it's the abismal sets that are being run over and over again. There is pretty much no variation in our offense for 48 minutes. There are no adjustments. When a play doesn't work he subs people out, as though its the players making errors. It's predictable and pathetic.

Exactly. His sets are worst in NBA.

[LUKE23]

Just to confirm: Skiles, a PG who was one of the worst defensive players in the league throughout his career, has developed Bogut's D to where it is today?

What in God's name does Skiles D as a player have to do with anything? If you're going to actually debate, debate the points. Here are the facts:

1. Skiles has never finished outside the top 10 in D for his career, outside of the one season Bogut missed 46 games.

2. Bucks were the worst defense in basketball before Skiles came in. They were 5th when Bogut went out in 2008-09, 2nd last year, and 4th this year.

3. If Bogut was already this stud defender before Skiles, how are we 30th in D? Hmmmmmmm.

Skiles as a player has nothing to do with anything.

[rilamann]

If the team was bad ofeensivley because we had good offensive players and they wern't getting good shots because of the style of offense that would be one thing.

But that's not the case.

Our offense is bad because we have bad offensive players that can't consistiently make ''good shots''.

That's not on Skiles.

The good shots have been there all season.If the Bucks had simply a better % of their ''good shots'' and ''open shots'' this season we would probably be fighting the Hawks for the 5th seed right now.

[Sigra]

His offense force them to play one on one 99% of posesions. That produce bad numbers for everybody. And that is true for any basketball team. Teams that play like team and have good offensive sets allow their players to be open more. In that kind of teams you have more easy baskets, more FT attempts and more ball movement.

So what happened last year running the same offense, when Bogut was healthy and Salmons was shooting well (and playing for a contract)? Oh......

Man Why you can't read? What is the problem with you and reading?

I said FEW TIMES already that Skiles has no idea what to run at offense exept one-on-one and pick&roll sometimes. So when he has better one-on-one players his offense is a little better. Last year he had better one on one players as Bogut was healthy and Salmons and Ridnour played for contract.

[LUKE23]

I said FEW TIMES already that Skiles has no idea what to run at offense exept one-on-one and pick&roll sometimes. So when he has better one-on-one players his offense is a little better. Last year he had better one on one players as Bogut was healthy and Salmons and Ridnour played for contract.

I am reading. You're not debating the point as usual. But thanks for confirming that it is on the players to make shots. That is all I wanted.

It's not a very hard concept at all. We ran the same offense as last year, and with good wing production, had a competent offense. Amazing that when Salmons is gutter trash we can't score. Salmons sucking is on Salmons and nobody else.

[rilamann]

Just to confirm: Skiles, a PG who was one of the worst defensive players in the league throughout his career, has developed Bogut's D to where it is today?

You can't be serious with this comment.,

[lawrybeard]

Just to confirm: Skiles, a PG who was one of the worst defensive players in the league throughout his career, has developed Bogut's D to where it is today?

What in God's name does Skiles D as a player have to do with anything? If you're going to actually debate, debate the points. Here are the facts:

1. Skiles has never finished outside the top 10 in D for his career, outside of the one season Bogut missed 46 games.

2. Bucks were the worst defense in basketball before Skiles came in. They were 5th when Bogut went out in 2008-09, 2nd last year, and 4th this year.

3. If Bogut was already this stud defender before Skiles, how are we 30th in D? Hmmmmmmm.

Skiles as a player has nothing to do with anything.

Re 1 & 2: We've already established our difference of opinion we have in credit for D for a team. We had a complete roster overhaul. I say GM, you say coach.

Re 3: Do you think CV could finish his career and become a defensive coach who could develop players to become great defensive players? Of course not. Bogut was a 23 year old international player surrounded by crappy me first offensive minded players. His development was a combination of getting older and stronger, learning the NBA game and having more support. The idea that Skiles developed his defensive game is ridiculous.