PG Hawks - KPJ, Kuzma Spark Win

[Dick Tate]

The Dame Haters are sleeping I guess?

Tough night for the Dame and Kuz obsessed.

It's amazing who doesn't post in these threads after a game like this. Must be a miserable way to be a fan when your primary motivation is pushing your own personal player agendas.

Last three games in the minutes the starters shared on the court:
DEN +17
DAL +13
ATL +11

Even the Prince complaints are dying off.

[WeMajor34]

I don't know about "likely", but if we're healthy and fail to make it past the 2nd round, then everything sans Giannis should be on the table. Coach, GM, roster spots 2-15. Everything.

I agree but look at who we face in the second round IF we get there. An awesome Cavs team if we stay in the 4 or 5 seed. Or if we possibly get the 3 seed, we face a Celtics team that always gives us trouble.

So I understand the point, but if we don't make it past the second round, there are built-in excuses. If we give Cleveland or Boston a tough 6-7 game series in the second, I could see the organization shrugging their shoulders and hitting the "run it back" button. I don't agree with those excuses or organizational thinking but nonetheless.

It's all hypothetical at this point. This team could beat anyone with good health so I hope at least an ECF appearance is in our near future.

[Willie Colon]

A lot of KPJ's turnovers are a result of not having enough chemistry as well as trying to set up clever passing plays with a team that runs an extremely basic offense. Most of our team is accustomed to standing around watching the stars go 1 on 5 rather than moving off ball. The last play before he was subbed out is a good example. He threaded the needle, took two defenders out of the play and left Giannis with an open lane to the bucket. Too bad Giannis wasn't expecting a pass.

Also, his defensive instincts are ELITE. Really good sign for his development.

[Ron Swanson]

KPJ is a high confidence, bordering on extreme arrogance, guy that loves to make the flashy pass/play. I don't really think it's any more complicated than that. He's never worked particularly well in a structured offense, which is why the role they have him in now suits him best. That's the double edged sword with guys like him and Kuzma. Still waiting for Porter to stop being prime MJ or 2011 playoff Dirk from mid-range so we can get a proper look at what kind of impact he can really have. The defensive effort has been great though.

[Wonka]

Tough night for the Dame and Kuz obsessed.

It's amazing who doesn't post in these threads after a game like this. Must be a miserable way to be a fan when your primary motivation is pushing your own personal player agendas.

Last three games in the minutes the starters shared on the court:
DEN +17
DAL +13
ATL +11

Even the Prince complaints are dying off.

I don't think anyone is against Prince as a player. He's been a great vet min guy... but starting him at the 2 is objectively a weird choice.

[emunney]

I don't know about "likely", but if we're healthy and fail to make it past the 2nd round, then everything sans Giannis should be on the table. Coach, GM, roster spots 2-15. Everything.

I agree but look at who we face in the second round IF we get there. An awesome Cavs team if we stay in the 4 or 5 seed. Or if we possibly get the 3 seed, we face a Celtics team that always gives us trouble.

So I understand the point, but if we don't make it past the second round, there are built-in excuses. If we give Cleveland or Boston a tough 6-7 game series in the second, I could see the organization shrugging their shoulders and hitting the "run it back" button. I don't agree with those excuses or organizational thinking but nonetheless.

It's all hypothetical at this point. This team could beat anyone with good health so I hope at least an ECF appearance is in our near future.

I think there would have to be some external excuse that supercedes "we couldn't beat a good team." Like, getting a good team in the 2nd round is not a justification for not getting out of the 2nd round. That's typically what you're going to find in the second round.

[tedbrogen]

It's amazing who doesn't post in these threads after a game like this. Must be a miserable way to be a fan when your primary motivation is pushing your own personal player agendas.

Last three games in the minutes the starters shared on the court:
DEN +17
DAL +13
ATL +11

Even the Prince complaints are dying off.

I don't think anyone is against Prince as a player. He's been a great vet min guy... but starting him at the 2 is objectively a weird choice.

It’s so weird that it’s somehow working. It makes no sense but it works. Two games against super quick guards that should have shredded this lineup (Kyrie and Trae) and it still worked.

Prince’s effort on D has also gone way up in this new lineup. He’s more engaged chasing around guards than he was when he was standing off ball and helping on drives. Go back and watch the game against the Celtics during the first ten games when Dame got concussed. They lost that game at least partially because of how low effort Prince was on D and on the boards. (Concussed Dame and injured Trent and Midds on PTO didn’t help either)

He is also playing a nice two man with Giannis when they run that left side action where Giannis screens for him, they pass it to him coming around the screen and he drives to the hoop for a shot at the rim or a pass to Giannis on the roll.

I keep waiting for him to regress on three point percent but he keeps hitting them and taking them mainly from the corner.

He’s not ideal and I’d still like to see what the starting lineup looks like with AJ Green in it, but it’s hard to argue with a lineup that is 7-1 or whatever.

[WeMajor34]

I don't know about "likely", but if we're healthy and fail to make it past the 2nd round, then everything sans Giannis should be on the table. Coach, GM, roster spots 2-15. Everything.

I agree but look at who we face in the second round IF we get there. An awesome Cavs team if we stay in the 4 or 5 seed. Or if we possibly get the 3 seed, we face a Celtics team that always gives us trouble.

So I understand the point, but if we don't make it past the second round, there are built-in excuses. If we give Cleveland or Boston a tough 6-7 game series in the second, I could see the organization shrugging their shoulders and hitting the "run it back" button. I don't agree with those excuses or organizational thinking but nonetheless.

It's all hypothetical at this point. This team could beat anyone with good health so I hope at least an ECF appearance is in our near future.

I think there would have to be some external excuse that supercedes "we couldn't beat a good team." Like, getting a good team in the 2nd round is not a justification for not getting out of the 2nd round. That's typically what you're going to find in the second round.

I totally agree with you. I just think that excuse will be used to smooth over potential roster/coaching/management issues IF we lose in the second round to a team like Cleveland or Boston. We see teams jump right back on the treadmill all the time after playoff losses and expect change to magically happen without actually following through.

Losing in the first (yikes) or second round this year should mean an offseason of change is coming. FWIW, I don't think Dame is going anywhere this offseason unless he asks out, whether we get past the second round or not.

[tedbrogen]

KPJ is a high confidence, bordering on extreme arrogance, guy that loves to make the flashy pass/play. I don't really think it's any more complicated than that. He's never worked particularly well in a structured offense, which is why the role they have him in now suits him best. That's the double edged sword with guys like him and Kuzma. Still waiting for Porter to stop being prime MJ or 2011 playoff Dirk from mid-range so we can get a proper look at what kind of impact he can really have. The defensive effort has been great though.

Maybe a coach telling him he has free rein to take those midrange jumpers and that everything on those non-Dame&Giannis minutes runs through him has made his confidence skyrocket? And maybe this is the player he is (in limited minutes) when he’s playing with confidence?

Not sure I would want them feeding him a bunch more minutes but I do think they could use him situationally at end of games in place of Dame on D when you know you’re using a time out after to get Dame back on. Or use him in place of Brook in late game defensive situations against five out teams that would cook Brook.

[Turk Nowitzki]

KPJ is a high confidence, bordering on extreme arrogance, guy that loves to make the flashy pass/play. I don't really think it's any more complicated than that. He's never worked particularly well in a structured offense, which is why the role they have him in now suits him best. That's the double edged sword with guys like him and Kuzma. Still waiting for Porter to stop being prime MJ or 2011 playoff Dirk from mid-range so we can get a proper look at what kind of impact he can really have. The defensive effort has been great though.

Agreed on KPJ but I thought Kuzma did a fantastic job of playing within himself and making the right plays within structure last night. I think he has it in him where KPJ might not.

[fansinceforever]

Even with how volatile KPJ can be, I'd still argue that relegating him to back up PG minutes isn't the right call.

The Bucks will need his creativity and ability to get past his man effortlessly more often later on. It's a no brainer when you factor in he's a pretty damn good defender too.

[tedbrogen]

Kuz switched onto Trae multiple times last night and completely shut Trae down.

This is the guy the Bucks needed in 2022 when Giannis was trying to single handedly beat the Celtics while everyone else took turns missing shots and getting cooked by Tatum.

[DingleJerry]

KPJ if he keeps his head on straight could easily be a Crawford/LouWill/Clarkson type guy for 10 years. Those guys were valuable and contributors to winning teams. But just have to keep them in the right role (and salary slot), try to elevate them a level and they're ppg tank commanders on bad teams

[tedbrogen]

Even with how volatile KPJ can be, I'd still argue that relegating him to back up PG minutes isn't the right call.

The Bucks will need his creativity and ability to get past his man effortlessly more often later on. It's a no brainer when you factor in he's a pretty damn good defender too.

Ideally you also use him in any non-Dame minutes with Giannis on the floor but there are not a lot of those to go around right now because Giannis is on a minutes restriction. (They did have him out there in the 4th when Giannis came back in but Dame was icing his eye for another minute)
Using him with Dame doesn’t seem beneficial because you don’t want to waste Dame off ball. Then you’re playing one of your worst defenders, not using his elite offensive skill, and instead using him as a floor spacer when the team has multiple better floor spacers who are also better defenders than Dame (AJG, Trent, Prince)
You either want Dame to have the ball or running actions with Giannis.

[paulpressey25]

Are there actually Dame haters here?

I think Dame is a wonderful player. And has a ton of trade value to the right team.

I’m just skeptical it works with he and Giannis as a pairing. But plausible Horst’s three deadline acquisitions have plugged the holes in the boat.

[fansinceforever]

Even with how volatile KPJ can be, I'd still argue that relegating him to back up PG minutes isn't the right call.

The Bucks will need his creativity and ability to get past his man effortlessly more often later on. It's a no brainer when you factor in he's a pretty damn good defender too.

Ideally you also use him in any non-Dame minutes with Giannis on the floor but there are not a lot of those to go around right now because Giannis is on a minutes restriction. (They did have him out there in the 4th when Giannis came back in but Dame was icing his eye for another minute)
Using him with Dame doesn’t seem beneficial because you don’t want to waste Dame off ball. Then you’re playing one of your worst defenders, not using his elite offensive skill, and instead using him as a floor spacer when the team has multiple better floor spacers who are also better defenders than Dame (AJG, Trent, Prince)
You either want Dame to have the ball or running actions with Giannis.

I get that logic, kind of. but why would it hurt Dame to play with a strong defender who can create off the dribble and relieve pressure off of him?

In the playoffs whens teams don't/won't respect Green/Prince/Trent's pump and go, wouldn't it help to have another guy next to Dame that can get the defense trailing?

[-Jragon-]

Even with how volatile KPJ can be, I'd still argue that relegating him to back up PG minutes isn't the right call.

The Bucks will need his creativity and ability to get past his man effortlessly more often later on. It's a no brainer when you factor in he's a pretty damn good defender too.

Ideally you also use him in any non-Dame minutes with Giannis on the floor but there are not a lot of those to go around right now because Giannis is on a minutes restriction. (They did have him out there in the 4th when Giannis came back in but Dame was icing his eye for another minute)
Using him with Dame doesn’t seem beneficial because you don’t want to waste Dame off ball. Then you’re playing one of your worst defenders, not using his elite offensive skill, and instead using him as a floor spacer when the team has multiple better floor spacers who are also better defenders than Dame (AJG, Trent, Prince)
You either want Dame to have the ball or running actions with Giannis.

I get that logic, kind of. but why would it hurt Dame to play with a strong defender who can create off the dribble and relieve pressure off of him?

In the playoffs whens teams don't/won't respect Green/Prince/Trent's pump and go, wouldn't it help to have another guy next to Dame that can get the defense trailing?

This is where I'm at too.. they trap the ball out of Dame's hands and boom, it goes to that monster.. then deflection and KPJ is running the other way with the starters, that's deadly.. anyone KPJ or Dame passes to hurts the other team.

[-Jragon-]

Shout out to Dame's closing reverse layup.. that was nasty..

Also AJG had a big 2 off of some fakes to tie it and Kuz with a huge fumbling spinning 3. Huge plays... Dame, for all the flack about his D --- his speed is still disruptive.. any tips or taps and Dame suddenly has it and is gone.

[raysbookclub]

Adding to this, I wonder if playing KPJ with Dame would help beating those defensive blitzes when Dame has the ball on top. Yesterday, getting the blitz, Dame tried to pass to Brook at the other side of arc, defender got his hand on it, and Brook got it back but had to take a bad shot to beat the 24.

What if you had KPJ in there with Dame rather than T Prince? Yesterday, that would mean KPJ not TP defending Young, and it would give the team another ball handling threat on offense. Teams might be blitzing Dame all playoffs if they aren't consistently punishing that blitz with easy scores.

[tedbrogen]

KPJ and Dame are not even in the top five Bucks off balls guys. They are both guys who are best utilized with the ball in their hands. Problem is, there is only one ball.

We saw just last night why you want Dame with the ball and not off ball. Bucks up five and they run three straight possessions of Giannis ISO post ups on the left side and they fail to score which leads to a tied game. Then they run Dame/Giannis PnR, Dame dishes to Giannis who finds Brook cutting to the rim for a dunk. Next possession, Dame gets a switch on the pick and gets all the way to the rim for that fantastic layup.

Giannis can thrive off ball because he maintains his gravity and he can screen/roll. Plus he is absolutely the guy you want with the ball if the other team wants to trap Dame and let the Bucks play 4 on 3. And the guy Dame is kicking it to in that spot is often the guy who set the screen. You want to screen with a bigger guy to create potential mismatches or a guy who can pick and pop like AJG or Trent to get them open looks. What advantage is gained if KPJ screens for Dame? There is no need to trap that when it’s an easy switch.

KPJ off ball is less effective than Trent, AJG, Prince, and even Brook because he is not as high percentage on catch and shoot threes. Kuz is probably better than him off ball because he is a fantastic cutter and generally big target.

Teams are more than happy to let Dame and KPJ be catch and shoot only guys. It’s the opposite of playing to their strengths. Does no one remember how up in arms the site was when Grief was using Dame as a stand in the corner guy?