Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[Antinomy]

Yes. Middleton to Memphis package essentially HAS to be:

Jones
Kennard
Zaire
Picks (two firsts-ish)

I think both Kennard and Jones could add a lot to our team. The picks increase flexibility to make deadline moves. But, I definitely get how that feels underwhelming.

Gonna save this one for when people say “nobody suggested THAT Khris trade” in the future.

[GregAz]

After watching the Bucks be eliminated in specatacular fashion, I was ready to tear it all down. While I still believe some serious moves need to be made, I think there are ways to address this while still remaining in title contention.

Khris, Jrue and Giannis are all great players, and I don't really want to lose any of them, but if we don't move anyone I don't see us getting another chip. The biggest weakness we have is not enough ball movement or ball handlilng ability. All of our big three can do it to some extent, but there remains a sizable hole there when the postseason comes around. Adding a ballhandler to the rotation is not going to fix it as Khris Jrue and Giannis are going to demand the ball in the postseason and we will have the same problems. One of them has to go and be replaced with as good of a player as we can get whose best skills are ballhandling and playmaking.

Since Giannis is in the superstar level, and we are highly unlikely to get anyone in that same tier back, trading him would be the worst path to pursue. Between Jrue and Khris, I believe that Jrue's skillset is less valuable to the Bucks. Keeping Khris is a bit of a gamble with his obviously declining athleticism along with uncertainty in contract expectations, but as he just showed in the Miami series, he still can make those tough shots that we don't have a replacement for. Depending on what's available in trades, moving Khris might be the option we have, but I would prefer it is Jrue that gets moved.

What can not happen is keeping all three of them and expecting any difference in our offense come playoffs. With all three of them on the roster, they will demand the ball, movement will get stuck, and we will be putting up awful shot after awful shot. It doesn't matter how good of a playmaker or ballhander the 4th-8th best players on the team are, the ball is going to be in the hands of our top three come playoff time the majority of the time. One of them has to be replaced. We may not be able to get an overall upgrade as a player compared to Jrue or Khris, but if they are at least close in caliber with better ballhandling and playmaking, it has to be done.

Brook has been my second favorite player on the team since he initially signed. What he does on defense, he does better than anyone in the league. The problem is when what he does can be exploited, he doesn't have a different way to play to pivot to. I hope he is kept, but we need an answer for when his defensive style is untenable. If he has decent value, maybe he can be traded if it is for a clear improvement on the roster.

Grayson, Bobby, Pat, Wes, Ingles, Jevon, and Jae are not difference makers in the playoffs. Most of them seem to be high qualtiy locker room guys and most seem to be able to squeeze some regular season production from. Some can play a limited role in the playoffs, but all must be looked at to see if we can find better fits or used as trade sweeteners/fillers in the quest to add a new top 3 player on the team.

As far as Bud goes, I love what he has done for the team, but his game management and lack of viable alternative defensive schemes really puts a bind on the ceiling of this team as well. Additionally, how many times have we seen this team just start off a series completely unprepared? If he has an answer and path to addressing this I am good with keeping him, however after watching this for 5 years, I am skeptical that Bud has the capacity to do so. Maybe he could stick around as POBO or something in that line.

TLDR: Bud should probably be gone in favor of someone that has better gametime management. Either Jrue or Khris need to be moved for a player with better ball handling and play making. Everyone else (besides Giannis) should be looked at in potential trade upgrades.

[Ron Swanson]

Yes. Middleton to Memphis package essentially HAS to be:

Jones
Kennard
Zaire
Picks (two firsts-ish)

I think both Kennard and Jones could add a lot to our team. The picks increase flexibility to make deadline moves. But, I definitely get how that feels underwhelming.

Gonna save this one for when people say “nobody suggested THAT Khris trade” in the future.

And this is still a hell of a lot better than the actually suggested Spencer Dinwiddie + Tim Hardaway Jr. + one future 1st package...

[RiotPunch]

Pivoting to a different hypothetical here. I view Bridges as close to untouchable if I'm Brooklyn, and say Ujiri is still reluctant to trade OG. Memphis really wants to make a move and starts getting desperate. Maybe they start viewing replacing Brooks' perimeter defense as more important than getting another shot-creating wing (or just go for a cheaper guy)....

Jrue Holiday for Kennard, Tyus Jones, and 3-4 unprotected 1st's and pick swaps. Who says no?

How quickly does Memphis hang up if we insist on Bane rather than the 1sts? Then they still use those picks for a guy like Anunoby.

[Antinomy]

Let’s take a look at the last 5 years:

2019 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = ECF

2020 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = 2nd Round exit

2021 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = NBA Title (would’ve been a 2nd round exit if not for KD’s foot + injuries)

2022 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 2nd round exit (Khris was out+ Jrue pushed into #2 role)

2023 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 1st Round exit (*embarrassing fashion + Giannis missed 3 games)

It’s clear to me who needs to be moved. Especially when we were able to get just as far or further with ERIC BLEDSOE as the 3rd option.

Yes, we won the title. But are we sure we couldn’t have atleast gotten past Brooklyn with Bledsoe there instead?

Jrue vs BKN = 15-5-6 on 36/26/73 (43%TS)

Khris putting up 35 in Game 3, 38 in Game 6 & hitting the game-winner in Game 7 was a much bigger factor than what Jrue did.

Yes, Jrue had MOMENTS during that run, but he was mostly ineffective or missing tons of shots.

This team has had repeated offensive issues in the playoffs under Bud. So the solution to me, is getting rid of PGs whose offensive games fall off a cliff in the playoffs.

Once again, if KD’s foot wasn’t on the line, we’d be in a much different predicament right now having dumped Bledsoe + 3 FRPs for his doppelgänger.

Giannis & Khris are the two most important pieces. Imo, you keep them & reshuffle the deck. Otherwise, just tear the whole thing down.

[Ron Swanson]

Eric Bledsoe doesn't show up with those clutch shots and defensive plays vs. Brooklyn, nor does he put Devin Booker in jail in the Finals. Jrue deserves all the **** for how bad he was vs. Miami, but there's levels to this. Nobody keeps the dumb "toe on the line" narrative alive like some of our own fans do...

[Couch Potato]

Let’s take a look at the last 5 years:

2019 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = ECF

2020 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = 2nd Round exit

2021 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = NBA Title (would’ve been a 2nd round exit if not for KD’s foot + injuries)

2022 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 2nd round exit (Khris was out+ Jrue pushed into #2 role)

2023 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 1st Round exit (*embarrassing fashion + Giannis missed 3 games)

It’s clear to me who needs to be moved. Especially when we were able to get just as far or further with ERIC BLEDSOE as the 3rd option.

Yes, we won the title. But are we sure we couldn’t have atleast gotten past Brooklyn with Bledsoe there instead?

Jrue vs BKN = 15-5-6 on 36/26/73 (43%TS)

Khris putting up 35 in Game 3, 38 in Game 6 & hitting the game-winner in Game 7 was a much bigger factor than what Jrue did.

Yes, Jrue had MOMENTS during that run, but he was mostly ineffective or missing tons of shots.

This team has had repeated offensive issues in the playoffs under Bud. So the solution to me, is getting rid of PGs whose offensive games fall off a cliff in the playoffs.

Once again, if KD’s foot wasn’t on the line, we’d be in a much different predicament right now having dumped Bledsoe + 3 FRPs for his doppelgänger.

Giannis & Khris are the two most important pieces. Imo, you keep them & reshuffle the deck. Otherwise, just tear the whole thing down.

What's your list of PG for trade? With the little we have to trade. Asking for a friend.

[midranger]

Yes. Middleton to Memphis package essentially HAS to be:

Jones
Kennard
Zaire
Picks (two firsts-ish)

I think both Kennard and Jones could add a lot to our team. The picks increase flexibility to make deadline moves. But, I definitely get how that feels underwhelming.

Gonna save this one for when people say “nobody suggested THAT Khris trade” in the future.

And this is still a hell of a lot better than the actually suggested Spencer Dinwiddie + Tim Hardaway Jr. + one future 1st package...

And I wasn’t actually advocating/suggesting that trade, (indeed I called it underwhelming) I’m just saying if there is a Memphis trade, that’s essentially the only possible trade. Similar to the only possible Dallas trade having been Hardaway and Dinwiddie + picks.

There are actually salary matching considerations in NBA trades. You can narrow down what’s possible so you don’t have to talk exclusively in hypotheticals. You can talk specifics.

[FrieAaron]

I don't think he's the answer for a primary ballhandler but can we bring in Hugo?

[pifhluk23]

is dillon brooks a dick like draymond or smart.... or more like lance stephenson... or what is he? just a complete ****?

there is no doubt on our team if he could rein in his shot selection, mouth, and falcon punches that hed be the piece we need in the tucker/crowder mold.

talk me off a cliff here

I'd take a flyer on him, we're at the point where we need to be taking risks, conservative isn't going to cut it. Besides this team needs some crazy, it's full of too many "good guys."

[Antinomy]

Eric Bledsoe doesn't show up with those clutch shots and defensive plays vs. Brooklyn, nor does he put Devin Booker in jail in the Finals. Jrue deserves all the **** for how bad he was vs. Miami, but there's levels to this. Nobody keeps the dumb "toe on the line" narrative alive like some of our own fans do...

Let me slow it down for you..

Jrue didn’t hit a “clutch shot” until Game 7 (where he shot 5/23) — we wouldn’t even have made it that far had Brooklyn been healthy.

I would’ve said Game 3 but he shot 4/14 that game & finally contributed with the layup at the end.

‘KD’s foot on the line’ isn’t a narrative.

If we can sit here & say ‘Miami wouldn’t have beaten us if Giannis was healthy’ or ‘Boston wouldn’t have beaten us if Khris was healthy’ — then why are you not taking off the homer glasses & being honest about that BKN series?

And I’m glad you brought the Finals up where Jrue had TWO good games & shot 36/31/91 splits.

He shot 4/20 in Game 4, where we almost went down 3-1 if not for Khris scoring 40.

He shot 4/19 in Game 6, where Giannis bailed us out with 50 points

He put Devin Booker in jail? Booker had two 40 point games in that series — Oh wait no, he must’ve scored all those points on Khris somehow.

As I said, Jrue had moments but we won several key games in spite of him.

[pifhluk23]

Pivoting to a different hypothetical here. I view Bridges as close to untouchable if I'm Brooklyn, and say Ujiri is still reluctant to trade OG. Memphis really wants to make a move and starts getting desperate. Maybe they start viewing replacing Brooks' perimeter defense as more important than getting another shot-creating wing (or just go for a cheaper guy)....

Jrue Holiday for Kennard, Tyus Jones, and 3-4 unprotected 1st's and pick swaps. Who says no?

How quickly does Memphis hang up if we insist on Bane rather than the 1sts? Then they still use those picks for a guy like Anunoby.

They immediately hang up.

[rilamann]

Bucks might have been swept in the Brooklyn series if you replace Holiday with Bledsoe, they certainly don't win the series.

That said, Holiday is such a weird player, he's one of the only guys I have ever seen who is overrated, but somehow simultaneously has a reputation for being underrated. I was actually having this conversation (not on here) with someone about a month ago.

And when I say Holiday is overrated, I am not saying he sucks, he's a good player and he did help us win a championship. I just don't think he's as good as a lot of people think. He builds his reputation on Tuesday nights in January. He's not a high BBIQ guy who you can trust to show up in significant games.

The Buck's biggest downfall was their lack of basketball IQ and Holiday is one of the main culprit as far as guys actually on the court. Holiday and Giannis.

I know I am not the only one whose initial reaction in real was WTF ARE YOU DOING??? when Holiday first went to throw the valley-oop. It worked out, but imagine if that decision had resulted in a turnover.

Would be interesting to see Holiday play with a true PG, I'll give him that argument. But with the way Jimmy Butler completely snatched and obliterated Holiday's soul, I'm not even sure how Holiday can show his face in a Bucks uniform again.

[RiotPunch]

Pivoting to a different hypothetical here. I view Bridges as close to untouchable if I'm Brooklyn, and say Ujiri is still reluctant to trade OG. Memphis really wants to make a move and starts getting desperate. Maybe they start viewing replacing Brooks' perimeter defense as more important than getting another shot-creating wing (or just go for a cheaper guy)....

Jrue Holiday for Kennard, Tyus Jones, and 3-4 unprotected 1st's and pick swaps. Who says no?

How quickly does Memphis hang up if we insist on Bane rather than the 1sts? Then they still use those picks for a guy like Anunoby.

They immediately hang up.

Yeah...

[Antinomy]

Let’s take a look at the last 5 years:

2019 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = ECF

2020 - Giannis/Khris/Bledsoe = 2nd Round exit

2021 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = NBA Title (would’ve been a 2nd round exit if not for KD’s foot + injuries)

2022 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 2nd round exit (Khris was out+ Jrue pushed into #2 role)

2023 - Giannis/Khris/Jrue = 1st Round exit (*embarrassing fashion + Giannis missed 3 games)

What's your list of PG for trade? With the little we have to trade. Asking for a friend.

I’d trade Jrue & take what I can get for him. We don’t need a PG making $35M a year for what he provides, especially in the postseason.

Boston for example has:

- Smart at $17M a year
- White at $16M a year
- Brogdon at $22M a year

Is Jrue really worth 2 of those guys combined?

I’ve been an advocate of this being a gap year — I think it starts with us moving on from Jrue to get creative at the guard spot.

Along with reducing Brook’s role.

[averageposter]

Normally a player participates in a stunner of a first round upset, plays his worst playoff series to date, and has some thoughts about retirement, I'd say he needs some time to get some distance from what just happened. I'm inclined to believe that talk though as Holiday seems like the kind of guy to get out before its too late, has a huge commitment to charity and has won a a championship, gold medal, and gone through cancer scare with his wife. He's probably done all he needs to do. If Jrue Holiday's last contract year with the Bucks is also his retirement year that's a pretty narrow trade scenario. Moving on then with value would not be easy.

[Antinomy]

Bucks might have been swept in the Brooklyn series if you replace Holiday with Bledsoe, they certainly don't win the series.

That said, Holiday is such a weird player, he's one of the only guys I have ever seen who is overrated, but somehow simultaneously has a reputation for being underrated. I was actually having this conversation (not on here) with someone about a month ago.

And when I say Holiday is overrated, I am not saying he sucks, he's a good player and he did help us win a championship. I just don't think he's as good as a lot of people think. He builds his reputation on Tuesday nights in January. He's not a high BBIQ guy who you can trust to show up in significant games.

The Buck's biggest downfall was their lack of basketball IQ and Holiday is one of the main culprit as far as guys actually on the court. Holiday and Giannis.

I know I am not the only one whose initial reaction in real was WTF ARE YOU DOING??? when Holiday first went to throw the valley-oop. It worked out, but imagine if that decision had resulted in a turnover.

Would be interesting to see Holiday play with a true PG, I'll give him that argument. But with the way Jimmy Butler completely snatched and obliterated Holiday's soul, I'm not even sure how Holiday can show his face in a Bucks uniform again.

Well, they almost went down 3-0 had it not been for Giannis+Khris combining for 68 of our 86 points.

And in the potential “sweep” Game 4, Jrue shot 6/16 & did nothing of note.

Regarding the Miami series:

I knew we weren’t winning Game 5 when we won the tip, Jrue caught the ball, turned & immediately launched a three pointer that bricked 4 seconds into the game.

That set the tone for rest of the night.

Coming off that Game 4 fourth quarter disaster, it was clear he didn’t learn a thing.

[Antinomy]

And btw, I love Jrue.

Everything about his story, his contributions, his commitment to his craft out of basketball, etc.

I’d much rather keep him here than let him go.

But basketball-wise, it’s tough for me to look at the situation with the team & see that it either has to be:

Khris & Jrue both sent out.

Or Jrue by himself.

If Khris is the only one who goes, you can automatically write next season off completely— we already know what it looks like with Jrue #2

Atleast if it’s Jrue (who has more trade value), we could simply reconfigure our approach around the two guys who have a proven model for success.

[Couch Potato]

Yeah it's nice to complain of needs for the roster. But what players are you targeting through trade? With little we have? Even if you trade Holiday for a different PG. Who is our SG? Our SG been lame with Allen and PatC. Bud barely plays Beauchamp.

[Ron Swanson]

Eric Bledsoe doesn't show up with those clutch shots and defensive plays vs. Brooklyn, nor does he put Devin Booker in jail in the Finals. Jrue deserves all the **** for how bad he was vs. Miami, but there's levels to this. Nobody keeps the dumb "toe on the line" narrative alive like some of our own fans do...

As I said, Jrue had moments but we won several key games in spite of him.

Yeah, this isn't the same thing as "we win a championship without him" cuz that's not how this works. Also, lol at literally the game-winning basket in Game 3 not being "clutch". I did notice you failed to mention that Khris being absolute dog **** in the ECF vs. Toronto was a pretty big reason why we didn't win with arguably the best team we've had in the Bud era though. We can play the what-if game every single year, but I'm not here for the revisionist stuff and gaslighting the fanbase into thinking they were just lucky to fall ass backwards into a championship in spite of Jrue and KD's toe.