The Jabari Discussion Thread - Back 2/2

[Rainwater]

Here is yet another example of Logic versus emotional attachment.

You are on your way to the NBA Finals and you have two choices to get there by car. One is to go through the mountains because it has many scenic views. The other road is slightly shorter but all you are going to see is corn fields The weather forecasters tell you that there has been two avalanches on the scenic Mountain Pass recently. They warn you that there is a fifty percent chance your car will be hit by an avalanche if you take the scenic route. They tell you that you might get stranded. Your car might get hit and you will get hurt and they tell you that you might even die.

If you take the boring route you will get to the NBA Finals game at some point and it might be sooner than taking the scenic route. Which route does anyone using logic take? Which one does an emotional, irrational person take?

I understand many have an emotional attachment to Jabari Parker. He seems like a good young man. However, to argue there is any logic in prolonging this situation in hopes it all works out is not Logical. What is Logical is to end the huge risks and get the best player who can help the Bucks meet their needs sooner rather than later.

You are are confusing emotion with risk/chance. Are we willing to risk a lot on Jabari with the big chance we may either crash and burn or make it big.

By your logic Golden State should have never took a shot with Steph Curry. They should have gone the safe route and traded him, he was going to be the next Grant Hill. Some people take the safe route, others take chances.

Steph Curry was never injured to the extent that Jabari has been. Steph Curry signed a modest deal to keep his career moving forward. Jabari and his agent have already told us their intentions. My example was spot on my friend.

I will give you the Contract issue but come on now Curry missed the last few games of his second season due the ankle then lost the majority of the third. According to your logic, that ankle injury can pop at any moment. But why sign such a risk to such a sizeable contract ? lol.

[LogitechBucks]

but your answer for a center is Vucevic? Who's literally one of the worst starting centers in the league? For a guy who if he stays healthy is an all-star ?

Give me about 15 minutes. I am going to show you logically and with a multitude of stats (advanced metrics) that he would be an awesome pick up for the tiny salary he is currently getting paid.

I can't wait to see these defensive metrics

Be careful for what you wish for. I will give you a clue, Vucevic is currently 19th out of 446 players in one of the most important defensive advanced metrics.

[TroyD92]

Many of us believe the Bucks are closer than you do. We have the 3rd best wing in the League in Kris Middleton. I only see Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson being better. We have Giannis the 3rd best player in the league right now. We have the best pg we have had in years. We have Malcomn Brogdon who is trending upwards and is a player every championship quality team needs. We have the perfect roll player in Snell. Are only real needs are an effective, consistent center and a couple better bench players. So by moving Jabari and one or two of either Telly, Delly, and Henson along with anyone else not previously mentioned, we can acquire those missing pieces in the very near future and those moves will make us a contender this year and next year and then we can make wholesale roster changes if we come up short.

This whole thing about needing another Superstar is so overblown. The Rockets have one and a bunch of roll players and their the best team in the west. San Antonio keeps winning with their best player out. All we need is to improve our bench and get a legitmate center and we will be a very strong team unlike anything we have had in a long, long time.

Khris Middleton top 3 wing????? Seriously. Are we still doing this??? Come on now. He is not even top 6.

The regular season does not matter, btw. Boston proved that last year. This is a Star driven league and stars to do matter. The Championship goes through Golden State.

Name 3 more wings better than Middleton. This is going to be interesting. Don't say Derozen either because he doesn't shoots 3's

Lebron
Durant
Leonard
George
Butler

[LogitechBucks]

You are are confusing emotion with risk/chance. Are we willing to risk a lot on Jabari with the big chance we may either crash and burn or make it big.

By your logic Golden State should have never took a shot with Steph Curry. They should have gone the safe route and traded him, he was going to be the next Grant Hill. Some people take the safe route, others take chances.

Steph Curry was never injured to the extent that Jabari has been. Steph Curry signed a modest deal to keep his career moving forward. Jabari and his agent have already told us their intentions. My example was spot on my friend.

I will give you the Contract issue but come on now Curry missed the last few games of his second season due the ankle then lost the majority of the third. According to your logic, that ankle injury can pop at any moment. But why sign such a risk to such a sizeable contract ? lol.

Torn ACL's or ankle injuries...hmmm ok

[LogitechBucks]

Khris Middleton top 3 wing????? Seriously. Are we still doing this??? Come on now. He is not even top 6.

The regular season does not matter, btw. Boston proved that last year. This is a Star driven league and stars to do matter. The Championship goes through Golden State.

Name 3 more wings better than Middleton. This is going to be interesting. Don't say Derozen either because he doesn't shoots 3's

Lebron
Durant
Leonard
George
Butler

Lebron and Durrant play most of their minutes at PF, Leonard I will give you but he is currently not playing. Middleton has been better than both Butler and George so far this season.

[RiotPunch]

Vuc is a good player in his own right, but he is not the answer for this team. Not by a long sight.

[Rainwater]

Many of us believe the Bucks are closer than you do. We have the 3rd best wing in the League in Kris Middleton. I only see Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson being better. We have Giannis the 3rd best player in the league right now. We have the best pg we have had in years. We have Malcomn Brogdon who is trending upwards and is a player every championship quality team needs. We have the perfect roll player in Snell. Are only real needs are an effective, consistent center and a couple better bench players. So by moving Jabari and one or two of either Telly, Delly, and Henson along with anyone else not previously mentioned, we can acquire those missing pieces in the very near future and those moves will make us a contender this year and next year and then we can make wholesale roster changes if we come up short.

This whole thing about needing another Superstar is so overblown. The Rockets have one and a bunch of roll players and their the best team in the west. San Antonio keeps winning with their best player out. All we need is to improve our bench and get a legitmate center and we will be a very strong team unlike anything we have had in a long, long time.

Khris Middleton top 3 wing????? Seriously. Are we still doing this??? Come on now. He is not even top 6.

The regular season does not matter, btw. Boston proved that last year. This is a Star driven league and stars to do matter. The Championship goes through Golden State.

Name 3 more wings better than Middleton. This is going to be interesting. Don't say Derozen either because he doesn't shoots 3's

So Derozan is not better than Midds because he does not shoot threes??? That is flawed logic, lol. Ben Simmons and John Wall must be terrible. Give me Harden, Klay, Beal, Demar, CJ, and Butler.

[Rainwater]

Steph Curry was never injured to the extent that Jabari has been. Steph Curry signed a modest deal to keep his career moving forward. Jabari and his agent have already told us their intentions. My example was spot on my friend.

I will give you the Contract issue but come on now Curry missed the last few games of his second season due the ankle then lost the majority of the third. According to your logic, that ankle injury can pop at any moment. But why sign such a risk to such a sizeable contract ? lol.

Torn ACL's or ankle injuries...hmmm ok

So it was ok for Grant Hill to get that max contract in Orlando despite his ankle, Correct??? Again, it depends on the player and no definites.

[LogitechBucks]

Khris Middleton top 3 wing????? Seriously. Are we still doing this??? Come on now. He is not even top 6.

The regular season does not matter, btw. Boston proved that last year. This is a Star driven league and stars to do matter. The Championship goes through Golden State.

Name 3 more wings better than Middleton. This is going to be interesting. Don't say Derozen either because he doesn't shoots 3's

So Derozan is not better than Midds because he does not shoot threes??? That is flawed logic, lol. Ben Simmons and John Wall must be terrible. Give me Harden, Klay, Beal, Demar, CJ, and Butler.

Wing players shoot 3's period. Harden is really the PG on Houston, everyone knows that. He is averaging 10 assist and handles the ball on nearly every possession. Middleton is outplaying both Butler and CJ at this point in the season.

[LogitechBucks]

I will give you the Contract issue but come on now Curry missed the last few games of his second season due the ankle then lost the majority of the third. According to your logic, that ankle injury can pop at any moment. But why sign such a risk to such a sizeable contract ? lol.

Torn ACL's or ankle injuries...hmmm ok

So it was ok for Grant Hill to get that max contract in Orlando despite his ankle, Correct??? Again, it depends on the player and no definites.

You just made my argument for me. Grant was often injured throughout his career. He never lived up to his potential. After the 2003-004 season his production dropped every year. This was after he missed the previous entire season with his ankle injury.

[Rainwater]

Name 3 more wings better than Middleton. This is going to be interesting. Don't say Derozen either because he doesn't shoots 3's

So Derozan is not better than Midds because he does not shoot threes??? That is flawed logic, lol. Ben Simmons and John Wall must be terrible. Give me Harden, Klay, Beal, Demar, CJ, and Butler.

Wing players shoot 3's period. Harden is really the PG on Houston, everyone knows that. He is averaging 10 assist and handles the ball on nearly every possession. Middleton is outplaying both Butler and CJ at this point in the season.

I can't deal with the the "wings shoot 3s period" logic. Some of the greatest wings in the game weren't great 3 point shooters. Wade, kobe, mj, Clyde. It's like you recently started watching basketball. Even today you can be great without the 3 point shoot. LeBron has been very Good with a reliable 3 point shoot.

I can't agree with Harden being a pg either. The guy for all but one season played sg but suddenly he is pg. Is Chris Paul now the SG? Lol. Harden is a sg. And if you are a star Guard you will always have the ball your hands. Look at LBJ, PG, Melo, and Giannis.

Middleton has literally only played well for half a season and doesn't play defense quite as well as he used to.

[Rainwater]

Torn ACL's or ankle injuries...hmmm ok

So it was ok for Grant Hill to get that max contract in Orlando despite his ankle, Correct??? Again, it depends on the player and no definites.

You just made my argument for me. Grant was often injured throughout his career. He never lived up to his potential. After the 2003-004 season his production dropped every year. This was after he missed the previous entire season with his ankle injury.

You literally avoided my last sentence when I said "it depends on the player and no definites"

[Rainwater]

Vuc is a good player in his own right, but he is not the answer for this team. Not by a long sight.

Vuc is literally Monroe with a jumper. Great offensive player but terrible defender.

[RRyder823]

Yup its like playing russian roulette for $100,000 but there's an option to set down the gun, walk away, pass go and collect $200.

Sure, think of the upside! But it could kill you.

That upside is probably one of the only chances the Bucks have to win a championship. Unless you're one of those people who think top tier free agents are going to sign with the bucks for less then the max. Take Parker out of the equation. This team is still in cap hell and the likelyhood that Horst can manage to secure cap space for a superstar is low, and the chances a superstar would sign in UFA with the Bucks is a few notches lower than that.

Many of us believe the Bucks are closer than you do. We have the 3rd best wing in the League in Kris Middleton. I only see Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson being better. We have Giannis the 3rd best player in the league right now. We have the best pg we have had in years. We have Malcomn Brogdon who is trending upwards and is a player every championship quality team needs. We have the perfect roll player in Snell. Our only real needs are an effective, consistent center and a couple better bench players. So by moving Jabari and one or two of either Telly, Delly, and Henson along with anyone else not previously mentioned, we can acquire those missing pieces in the very near future and those moves will make us a contender this year and next year and then we can make wholesale roster changes if we come up short.

This whole thing about needing another Superstar is so overblown. The Rockets have one superstar and a bunch of roll players and their the best team in the west. San Antonio keeps winning with their best player out. All we need is to improve our bench and get a legitmate center and we will be a very strong team unlike anything we have had in a long, long time.

Seriously. WTF did I just read?



Sent from my SM-G892A using RealGM mobile app

[LogitechBucks]

Vuc is a good player in his own right, but he is not the answer for this team. Not by a long sight.

Vuc is literally Monroe with a jumper. Great offensive player but terrible defender.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

Nikola Vucevic Stats/Ranking
Defensive: DPRM 2.7 (21st best out of 446)
Total RPM 3.49 (21st best out of 446)
Total RPM Wins 3.45 (19th best out of 446)
Player Impact Rating 13.5 (48th best out of 423 1 slot ahead of DeAndre Jordan)
17.0PPG 9RB 3.1 ASST 1 STL 1.1 BLK 49%FG 34% 3PT 54% EFG% 81% FT

Kevin Love Stats/Ranking
Defensive: DPRM 2.7 (192 best out of 446)
Total RPM 1.95 (41st best out of 446)
Total RPM Wins 2.40 (35th out of 446)
Player Impact Rating 16.1 (19th out of 423)
19.2 PPG 10.5RB 1.8 ASST .7STL .4BLK 47%FG 37%3PT 54%EFG% 90% FT

Jabari Parker Stats/Ranking
Defensive: DPRM -1.61 (408th best out of 468)
Total RPM -.78 RPM (188th best out of( 468)
Total RPM Wins 2.58 (158th best out of (468)
Player Impact Rating 12.1 (76th best out of 486)
20.1 PPG 6RB 2.8 ASST 1.0STL .4BLK 49%FG 36.5%3PT 53%EFG% 74% FT

Stats don’t lie. Nikola Vucevic is a much better defender than anyone here wants to admit . He is 21st best in the league so far this season.. Byambo is suppose to be the better of the two defensively but the stats don’t bear that out. I can’t count the number of people raving how we should have signed Byambo in the past. One even suggest we get him this year even with his 17M per season. I wont point out his name.

Jabari is beyond awful on defense. His -1.61 rating is 408th worse in the league. This negative rating puts him the bottom feeders in the league. Even with his potent offense he still has a total RPM in the negative. The team simply plays better without him as evidenced by last year. While he can score a little more than Nikola Vucevic, his overall play is much worse. For a supposed offensive juggernaut, even his efficiency FG% is behind Vucevic.

Vucevic is very close to overall performance of Kevin Love. Love shoots 3’s slightly better and is shooting 90% from the line this season. Love is getting 1.5 more boards per game. However the defensive nod has to go to Vucevic. He has more steals, more blocks, and much, much better defensive ranking. Vucevic is just plain a better defender than Love. Many suggested Love would be a perfect fit next to Giannis. I also suggested it but he is not obtainable this season.

Vucevic is 2 years younger than love is on a two year 12.5M attractive contract. Vucevic is playing almost as well as Love this season and also would be a perfect fit with Gianiss. Vucevic is still improving as time goes on and would be a great addition if you actually consider true facts and not one liners.

Those who say Vucevic’s defense is so bad, are saying that Jabari, one of the leagues 408th worst defenders, is some how not a major liability defensively to this team is just being disingenuous.

This clearly shows that Vucevic would add wins to are season total and help win some playoff series as well.

[coolhandluke121]

This just keeps getting more ridiculous by the day. It's like watching psychological experiment where members of a political party continues to stick to their people no matter what while some kind of computer simulation is creating more and more ridiculous scenarios every day just to see how far people will go to rationalize their preference. I know that's kind of a bad analogy because it would never happen in real life, but with a little imagination you can see how it would look.

The Bucks desperately needed a scorer last year. It was basically the exact same team except Khris was out and it was Monroe instead of Bledsoe. Jabari averaged 21 ppg on elite efficiency on a team that desperately needed scoring and they still weren't consistently a better team with him on the court. And now, after another torn ACL and on a team with a legit Big 3 who complement each other very well, he's somehow going to make all the difference?

Some of you are more lost than Jabari after two ball swings and a screen by the opposing team.

[msiris]

This just keeps getting more ridiculous by the day. It's like watching psychological experiment where members of a political party continues to stick to their people no matter what while some kind of computer simulation is creating more and more ridiculous scenarios every day just to see how far people will go to rationalize their preference. I know that's kind of a bad analogy because it would never happen in real life, but with a little imagination you can see how it would look.

The Bucks desperately needed a scorer last year. It was basically the exact same team except Khris was out and it was Monroe instead of Bledsoe. Jabari averaged 21 ppg on elite efficiency on a team that desperately needed scoring and they still weren't consistently a better team with him on the court. And now, after another torn ACL and on a team with a legit Big 3 who complement each other very well, he's somehow going to make all the difference?

Some of you are more lost than Jabari after two ball swings and a screen by the opposing team.

You have never liked him but at least you are consistent. Parker is not the only guy who looks lost with the defense we run.

[MickeyDavis]

If Vucevic is a superstar and Parker is so bad why would Orlando do a trade?

[Profound23]

That upside is probably one of the only chances the Bucks have to win a championship. Unless you're one of those people who think top tier free agents are going to sign with the bucks for less then the max. Take Parker out of the equation. This team is still in cap hell and the likelyhood that Horst can manage to secure cap space for a superstar is low, and the chances a superstar would sign in UFA with the Bucks is a few notches lower than that.

Many of us believe the Bucks are closer than you do. We have the 3rd best wing in the League in Kris Middleton. I only see Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson being better. We have Giannis the 3rd best player in the league right now. We have the best pg we have had in years. We have Malcomn Brogdon who is trending upwards and is a player every championship quality team needs. We have the perfect roll player in Snell. Our only real needs are an effective, consistent center and a couple better bench players. So by moving Jabari and one or two of either Telly, Delly, and Henson along with anyone else not previously mentioned, we can acquire those missing pieces in the very near future and those moves will make us a contender this year and next year and then we can make wholesale roster changes if we come up short.

This whole thing about needing another Superstar is so overblown. The Rockets have one superstar and a bunch of roll players and their the best team in the west. San Antonio keeps winning with their best player out. All we need is to improve our bench and get a legitmate center and we will be a very strong team unlike anything we have had in a long, long time.

Seriously. WTF did I just read?



Sent from my SM-G892A using RealGM mobile app

Every time Khris has a couple of good games people want to call him elite. They have to then use a bunch of qualifiers to make him elite like saying players like Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Klay...etc aren’t swingmen even though we all know we are in an era of positionless basketball.

It’s a whole bunch of prequalifiers to make him elite like : “What other 6’8 play who wears a double digit number with the same two numbers and name starts with a K can do what he can do?”

Then you answer Klay Thompson and they say, “Ha, wrong loser, Klay is 6’7” not 6’8.”

[LogitechBucks]

If Vucevic is a superstar and Parker is so bad why would Orlando do a trade?

I didn't say he was a superstar. In no way did try to insinuate he was a superstar. I did point out he was a better defender than Jabari and the raw statistics point that out. I did point out that Vucevic is a highly efficient scorer (54% Eff slightly higher than Jabari's 53%), a stat Jabari supporters always champion. I also didn't say Jabari was "so bad", the defensive +/- statistics showed that. Also out amount of wins increased after his second injury. I didn't say that statistics did.

To answer your question, Orlando's team is vastly under performing. They are not playoff contenders. Jabari does offer the "potential" to be an all-star caliber player and currently Orlando has only one such such All-stat caliber player in Aaron Gordon. Gordon at the 4 and Jabari at the 3 could be quite interesting for them and Orlando Magic Fans.

Look I think Vucevic is quality player on a good contract that would help us win more. His current player ranking is 48 one ahead of DeAndre Jordan. I didn't make the rankings. I just reported what the overall stats said to support my contentions.