Khris Middleton Thread

[trwi7]

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%.

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

[yannisk]

I'm often embarrassed to be a fan of this team, but I'm often even more embarrassed to be a fan of this team when reading idiotic takes like some of the ones in this thread.

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%. Get the **** out of here with this "Khris disappears in the playoffs" garbage.

where do you get these stats? here there are from basketball reference
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/middlkh01.html

2018-19 16.9 ppg 56.7 %TS
2019-20 20.3 ppg 50.7% TS

I don't call that disappearing but nothing to brag about if you are a max player

[coolhandluke121]

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%.

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

I'm pretty sure he meant the last 3 playoffs. The numbers don't add up at all otherwise, but they seem right if you include Boston.

It makes sense to go back 3 years. He was a shell of himself coming off the hamstring injury in 2017 after it seemed likely he would miss the whole season, and he was a 23-year-old in the playoffs for the first time in 2015. I'm not suggesting those shouldn't count against his career numbers, but it seems obvious that the last 3 seasons are a much more accurate representation of his playoff ability, which is basically exactly the same as his regular season ability.

[yannisk]

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%.

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

I'm pretty sure he meant the last 3 playoffs. The numbers don't add up at all otherwise, but they seem right if you include Boston.

It makes sense to go back 3 years. He was a shell of himself coming off the hamstring injury in 2017 after it seemed likely he would miss the whole season, and he was a 23-year-old in the playoffs for the first time in 2015. I'm not suggesting those shouldn't count against his career numbers, but it seems obvious that the last 3 seasons are a much more accurate representation of his playoff ability, which is basically exactly the same as his regular season ability.

he was amazing against Boston 3years ago, bad against Toronto and mediocre against Heat. If we take the averages maybe Giannis was great in the playoffs after all, he had TS of 62% 57% 61% but who cares? it is what he did against Toronto and Heat that matters not what he did against the Pistons and Orlando.

[4xBuck]

I'm often embarrassed to be a fan of this team, but I'm often even more embarrassed to be a fan of this team when reading idiotic takes like some of the ones in this thread.

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%. Get the **** out of here with this "Khris disappears in the playoffs" garbage.

Yeah, this board is pretty miserable a lot of the time. So many posters are all about the hate and gettin' their bitch on- oh well.

I'm thinking the that TS% is for the last three seasons. All in all, he's been everything we could have hoped for. Really impressed with his dedication to conditioning. It's paying dividends. He's moving like he did before the quad injury... I didn't have faith he'd go this route. I was thinking he'd go the route of Redd/Sanders. Very happy to be wrong about that.

[SirChurros]

Yes, last three postseasons. My apologies on the typo.

[giannis and 1]

Just remember: Everyone looks good when they're hitting 75% of their 3s. Lol on everyone losing their minds after two regular season games. Go backwards through Khris' game logs in your head. He's a fundamentally streaky player. But of course these games are the new normal. That stuff every postseason is the outlier.

So what have we learned from his postseasons vs. regular seasons? If he's in shape (which he is right now but hasn't been in the past) there are two major parts of his arsenal that will get him numbers now but won't carry forward in the same way:

1. His general hunting for foul calls. Falling down on 3 pointers and mid-range pump fake jump into the defender calls. He gets a few of these in the playoffs, but not at nearly the same rate. In the playoffs you risk the opposition going the other way for a dunk if you don't really sell that stuff.

2. His lay-up and floater package. This really fell off the cliff against Miami because as we all know, Khris is a bad athlete. These finger rolls that are being released well below the rim in a well-spaced regular season game were getting blocked or bouncing off under playoff intensity. He simply doesn't have another athletic gear to shift into. If he's red-hot, great. If not, it's difficult for him to be effective.

3. His playmaking. Everything mentioned above along with his bad dribbling means that him leaving his feet to pass isn't a great idea over the course of a seven game series. He still has his height and length which is used well in making deep over the top post passes to a cutting Brook or Giannis, but Khris' playmaking is a bonus in the playoffs, not something to be relied on.

With all that being said, we're firmly in the poker game now because Jrue is just that good. We're getting all the leadership qualities we coveted in Chris Paul in a younger body. I'm pretty confident even whatever Giannis is going through right now Jrue will mitigate. It's telling that both he and Khris wanted the ball on that second to last play against Boston. Bledsoe knew better. So now we have all kinds of options at the end of games aside from throw the ball to Khris in the corner and watch him shoot after the buzzer. I also have full confidence that Holiday isn't afraid to overrule Bud if need be.

Middleton looks a little more athletic, faster, agile, and better ball handler. Not saying he has made a huge jump in any of these areas in his late 20's, but it looked noticeable and I think it's enough for him to reach another level in his game. The development of these physical qualities, along with Jrue's presence, a slightly more dynamic offense, and more trustable shooters seems to have unlocked Middleton's passing game. We will see if he can keep it up. I don't think either he or Jrue are at the same level as other championship teams #2 options, but the fact that we have both makes up for that.

Oh yeah... Middleton in the corner at the buzzer is pretty good

[DavidDunn21]

Statistics are SO MUCH fun, aren't they?! It's almost like you can make them say anything you want them to say!

Here's a bit of clarity from my perspective, but feel free to use the numbers you feel more comfortable with.

Khris Middleton has played in the playoffs 5 years. In four of the five years he's shot 42% from the floor or less. Three of those years were sub .400. The outlier year was Boston. (and we didn't win that series). Figuring in the Prunty Boston year skews all Middleton stats beyond recognition. Pretending he's a rock solid 21/7/5 on great shooting is simply a lie, because as everyone should know by now:

KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Last year in the playoffs he played 10 games. Five were against a bad Orlando team and five were against a very good Heat team.
4/12
1/8
7/17
7/19
7/16
12/24
6/15
7/16
12/28
8/25

Five wins. Five losses. A ton of bad turnovers. Because:
KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

[giannis and 1]

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%.

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

Ahhh, you're talking about your height, right?

[WRau1]

Middleton is very good at basketball.

[emunney]

I'm often embarrassed to be a fan of this team, but I'm often even more embarrassed to be a fan of this team when reading idiotic takes like some of the ones in this thread.

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%. Get the **** out of here with this "Khris disappears in the playoffs" garbage.

Are those numbers only right if the Toronto series didn't happen?

I think Khris' best game as a Buck is last years sole win against the mighty Heat where he missed like 18 shots? Wonder what his TS% was for that?

56.3

[HKPackFan]

I think Jrue is going to make Kris better in the playoffs.

Previously Giannis can't shoot, Bledsoe can't shoot, brick Lopez can't shoot. And the 5th guy on the floor either disappears, sucks, or hesitates.

So it's up to Kris as the only creator and he's just forcing shots.

Now Jrue is going to make his life easier and Kris looks ready to find and distribute people.

It's early but I think with Kris looking to distribute and not forcing things, and Jrue making life easier for him, we may get to maximize his talents.

[blazza18]

I'm often embarrassed to be a fan of this team, but I'm often even more embarrassed to be a fan of this team when reading idiotic takes like some of the ones in this thread.

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%. Get the **** out of here with this "Khris disappears in the playoffs" garbage.

Are those numbers only right if the Toronto series didn't happen?

I think Khris' best game as a Buck is last years sole win against the mighty Heat where he missed like 18 shots? Wonder what his TS% was for that?

56.3

Was really hoping to do a stats/efficiency don't matter bit so damn you Midds for being great and doing it efficiently.

[trwi7]

The last two postseasons Khris has averaged 20 ppg, 6 rpg and 4.6 apg with a TS of 58%.

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

Ahhh, you're talking about your height, right?

Talking millimeters to my dick.

[DutchManDanFan]

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

Ahhh, you're talking about your height, right?

Talking millimeters to my dick.

A 50% increase?

[trwi7]

Ahhh, you're talking about your height, right?

Talking millimeters to my dick.

A 50% increase?

You flatter me, sir.

[higharc]

Khris is a player that feasts on mismatches, especially in iso plays. Without them he is solid enough, even good if he doesn't force things. In playoff scenarios, teams adjust more around him so he may need more help from Bud in order to be game-altering effective (but that is true for Giannis as well and for other star players). Jrue can help more than Bledsoe facilitating such plays.

Having limitations is expected, but when one has put together some good playoff performances in the past, we can expect him to do it again in the future, as long as the coaching is good.

The new element this year is that he may be presenting glimpses of being able to do more stuff. From glimpses to playoff implementation there is a long way. If we see that, his contract is easily justified. If not, it's still marginally ok as he was a factor that contributed to Giannis signing. Best way to judge it is its trade value. I think it is a plus asset right now, meaning it can exist in conversations of trade talks for other max players rated higher than him and also demand a draft pick for players rated lower than him. Some of you may debate this of course, but ok, this is the purpose of the forum.

[-Jragon-]

I think these are all good thoughts but a bit off. Take away the failure low percentage fade away long 2s and what do you have? An efficient Manu type assassin.

Easy, 1. shoot open or step back 3s off passes with no dribbling - I'll accept those misses way better than those deflating 15 second dribbling with a deflating deep 2 fadeaway that hits the front of the rim.

2. Only drive on pumpfake fly by and now another defender has to decide whether to leave his man leading to easy assists or paint points

3. Only post up when you have a mismatch where you can get closer to the hoop and easily win - not long 2s

4. Championship

[coolhandluke121]

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

I'm pretty sure he meant the last 3 playoffs. The numbers don't add up at all otherwise, but they seem right if you include Boston.

It makes sense to go back 3 years. He was a shell of himself coming off the hamstring injury in 2017 after it seemed likely he would miss the whole season, and he was a 23-year-old in the playoffs for the first time in 2015. I'm not suggesting those shouldn't count against his career numbers, but it seems obvious that the last 3 seasons are a much more accurate representation of his playoff ability, which is basically exactly the same as his regular season ability.

he was amazing against Boston 3years ago, bad against Toronto and mediocre against Heat. If we take the averages maybe Giannis was great in the playoffs after all, he had TS of 62% 57% 61% but who cares? it is what he did against Toronto and Heat that matters not what he did against the Pistons and Orlando.

Short version of this post: when you're trying to argue that a really good player is not a really good player, you're inevitably going to get trapped in all sorts of impossible mental gymnastics. Even though it's probably not worth the effort to try to reason with someone who's doing that and point out their contradictions, I'll give it a shot anyway. I guess I'm really that bored.

Regarding the series that "matter" in the playoffs - dude, it all matters! It's the damn playoffs! You can't even be serious about this argument. Only one team wins the title and every other team eventually meets a team that's better than them in the playoffs. By definition that usually means some of their best players don't play as well as they normally do. IT'S COMPLETELY NORMAL TO HAVE WORSE STATS AGAINST THE BEST TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. That should go without saying, but apparently it does not. I once looked up regular season stats and playoff stats for basically every great player I could think of in the 30+ years I've been watching NBA basketball, and almost all of them exhibit a noticeable decline in their stats in the playoffs. And get this: those playoff stats are also skewed by putting up numbers in all those series that "don't matter!" Think about that.

There are some guys who have similar production in the playoffs (MJ obviously, among others), but a number of them are guys who didn't play nearly as many playoff games before or after their primes (MJ's teams lost 9 of 10 in their first 3 seasons in the playoffs, he retired after '98 and skipped several "post-prime" seasons, and he didn't even make it with the Wizards), which means their playoff stats aren't skewed downwards by early and late career stats the way their regular season stats are. It's also worth mentioning that if the playoffs weren't more difficult, most superstars should actually see their playoff stats skew upwards in the playoffs for the simple reason that a superstar in his prime is more likely to help his team advance and play more playoff games, thus having "in his prime" playoff stats overrepresented in his career playoff stats. The fact that they often still see a decline in production from their regular season stats despite playing more playoff games in their primes shows just how NORMAL AND EXPECTED it is to have worse stats against good playoff teams.

Now let's talk about why you said those series against Orlando and Detroit don't count - although I would be very interested to hear your explanation of why the 2018 series, when Khris had a 72% ts and the Bucks nearly became the SIXTH #7 SEED IN NBA HISTORY TO WIN A SERIES thanks in no small part to his historic efforts, "didn't matter." I would think most fans thought the second round against Boston in 2019 mattered too, considering how badly they lost game 1. But I digress - you clearly are saying the Orlando and Detroit series "don't matter" because those teams never had a chance of winning. Well DUH, why do you think they didn't have a chance of winning? Could it be because the Bucks have really good players like Khris and great players like Giannis who continue to be really good or great, as expected, when playing average teams in the playoffs? If anyone dropped off because of pressure in the playoffs, it's Giannis (see: FT's against Toronto). Khris is basically the exact same player. He doesn't put up the same stats against the best teams because hardly anybody does - that's what makes them the best teams. It's not rocket science.

By the way, do you realize the Orlando series was his worst series in the last 4 years? It was even worse than 2017, against a far superior team, when he came back from a hamstring that was torn in 3 places and probably had no business playing at all. So if the Orlando series doesn't matter, can I play your game and just take those stats out of his career playoff stats? Hey, there's an idea! Let's build a narrative that Khris just struggles and coasts when it doesn't matter because the Bucks are going to win anyway (Orlando), but shows up BIG for series like Boston in 2018 when he needs to be literally the best first-round scorer in the NBA in order to give the Bucks a chance! (Don't worry, I wouldn't do something so foolish. I'm not a Khris stan. I have perspective, and if it seems like I defend him too much, it's not because I'm biased in favor of him but rather because his haters have lost all perspective and I look like a total stan only in comparison.)

By the way, those series that "don't matter" also don't involve a lot of games, so they don't skew a player's career playoff stats as much as the series against the best teams. That's worth noting too.

[Shaffty]

Statistics are SO MUCH fun, aren't they?! It's almost like you can make them say anything you want them to say!

Here's a bit of clarity from my perspective, but feel free to use the numbers you feel more comfortable with.

Khris Middleton has played in the playoffs 5 years. In four of the five years he's shot 42% from the floor or less. Three of those years were sub .400. The outlier year was Boston. (and we didn't win that series). Figuring in the Prunty Boston year skews all Middleton stats beyond recognition. Pretending he's a rock solid 21/7/5 on great shooting is simply a lie, because as everyone should know by now:

KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Last year in the playoffs he played 10 games. Five were against a bad Orlando team and five were against a very good Heat team.
4/12
1/8
7/17
7/19
7/16
12/24
6/15
7/16
12/28
8/25

Five wins. Five losses. A ton of bad turnovers. Because:
KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Would you rather be right or the Bucks win a ring. Answer truthfully

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app