Khris Middleton Thread

[Shaffty]

Statistics are SO MUCH fun, aren't they?! It's almost like you can make them say anything you want them to say!

Here's a bit of clarity from my perspective, but feel free to use the numbers you feel more comfortable with.

Khris Middleton has played in the playoffs 5 years. In four of the five years he's shot 42% from the floor or less. Three of those years were sub .400. The outlier year was Boston. (and we didn't win that series). Figuring in the Prunty Boston year skews all Middleton stats beyond recognition. Pretending he's a rock solid 21/7/5 on great shooting is simply a lie, because as everyone should know by now:

KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Last year in the playoffs he played 10 games. Five were against a bad Orlando team and five were against a very good Heat team.
4/12
1/8
7/17
7/19
7/16
12/24
6/15
7/16
12/28
8/25

Five wins. Five losses. A ton of bad turnovers. Because:
KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Would you rather be right or the Bucks win a ring. Answer truthfully

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[yannisk]

I'm pretty sure he meant the last 3 playoffs. The numbers don't add up at all otherwise, but they seem right if you include Boston.

It makes sense to go back 3 years. He was a shell of himself coming off the hamstring injury in 2017 after it seemed likely he would miss the whole season, and he was a 23-year-old in the playoffs for the first time in 2015. I'm not suggesting those shouldn't count against his career numbers, but it seems obvious that the last 3 seasons are a much more accurate representation of his playoff ability, which is basically exactly the same as his regular season ability.

he was amazing against Boston 3years ago, bad against Toronto and mediocre against Heat. If we take the averages maybe Giannis was great in the playoffs after all, he had TS of 62% 57% 61% but who cares? it is what he did against Toronto and Heat that matters not what he did against the Pistons and Orlando.

Short version of this post: when you're trying to argue that a really good player is not a really good player, you're inevitably going to get trapped in all sorts of impossible mental gymnastics. Even though it's probably not worth the effort to try to reason with someone who's doing that and point out their contradictions, I'll give it a shot anyway. I guess I'm really that bored.

Regarding the series that "matter" in the playoffs - dude, it all matters! It's the damn playoffs! You can't even be serious about this argument. Only one team wins the title and every other team eventually meets a team that's better than them in the playoffs. By definition that usually means some of their best players don't play as well as they normally do. IT'S COMPLETELY NORMAL TO HAVE WORSE STATS AGAINST THE BEST TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. That should go without saying, but apparently it does not. I once looked up regular season stats and playoff stats for basically every great player I could think of in the 30+ years I've been watching NBA basketball, and almost all of them exhibit a noticeable decline in their stats in the playoffs. And get this: those playoff stats are also skewed by putting up numbers in all those series that "don't matter!" Think about that.

There are some guys who have similar production in the playoffs (MJ obviously, among others), but a number of them are guys who didn't play nearly as many playoff games before or after their primes (MJ's teams lost 9 of 10 in their first 3 seasons in the playoffs, he retired after '98 and skipped several "post-prime" seasons, and he didn't even make it with the Wizards), which means their playoff stats aren't skewed downwards by early and late career stats the way their regular season stats are. It's also worth mentioning that if the playoffs weren't more difficult, most superstars should actually see their playoff stats skew upwards in the playoffs for the simple reason that a superstar in his prime is more likely to help his team advance and play more playoff games, thus having "in his prime" playoff stats overrepresented in his career playoff stats. The fact that they often still see a decline in production from their regular season stats despite playing more playoff games in their primes shows just how NORMAL AND EXPECTED it is to have worse stats against good playoff teams.

Now let's talk about why you said those series against Orlando and Detroit don't count - although I would be very interested to hear your explanation of why the 2018 series, when Khris had a 72% ts and the Bucks nearly became the SIXTH #7 SEED IN NBA HISTORY TO WIN A SERIES thanks in no small part to his historic efforts, "didn't matter." I would think most fans thought the second round against Boston in 2019 mattered too, considering how badly they lost game 1. But I digress - you clearly are saying the Orlando and Detroit series "don't matter" because those teams never had a chance of winning. Well DUH, why do you think they didn't have a chance of winning? Could it be because the Bucks have really good players like Khris and great players like Giannis who continue to be really good or great, as expected, when playing average teams in the playoffs? If anyone dropped off because of pressure in the playoffs, it's Giannis (see: FT's against Toronto). Khris is basically the exact same player. He doesn't put up the same stats against the best teams because hardly anybody does - that's what makes them the best teams. It's not rocket science.

By the way, do you realize the Orlando series was his worst series in the last 4 years? It was even worse than 2017, against a far superior team, when he came back from a hamstring that was torn in 3 places and probably had no business playing at all. So if the Orlando series doesn't matter, can I play your game and just take those stats out of his career playoff stats? Hey, there's an idea! Let's build a narrative that Khris just struggles and coasts when it doesn't matter because the Bucks are going to win anyway (Orlando), but shows up BIG for series like Boston in 2018 when he needs to be literally the best first-round scorer in the NBA in order to give the Bucks a chance! (Don't worry, I wouldn't do something so foolish. I'm not a Khris stan. I have perspective, and if it seems like I defend him too much, it's not because I'm biased in favor of him but rather because his haters have lost all perspective and I look like a total stan only in comparison.)

By the way, those series that "don't matter" also don't involve a lot of games, so they don't skew a player's career playoff stats as much as the series against the best teams. That's worth noting too.

I appreciate your effort to write all this. I apologize I won't reply point by point. But speaking of myself I am not a Khris hater on the contrary I consider him a very good player. I don't consider him top 15 in the nba though, or number 1 in a championship team and these are the kind of posts I am replying to. His numbers are there I don't need to write a 500 word post, I give him credit when he plays well and I do not do mental gymnastics when he plays bad. Simple as that

[coolhandluke121]

I appreciate your effort to write all this. I apologize I won't reply point by point. But speaking of myself I am not a Khris hater on the contrary I consider him a very good player. I don't consider him top 15 in the nba though, or number 1 in a championship team and these are the kind of posts I am replying to. His numbers are there I don't need to write a 500 word post, I give him credit when he plays well and I do not do mental gymnastics when he plays bad. Simple as that

Sorry if I lumped you in with the most egregious, unreasonable Khris haters, but it's still weird to suggest he's not a good player when it matters. His stats are still pretty good in lots of important playoff games. His stats are bad in a lot of other important playoff games. That's normal, especially for someone who depends so much on the variance of outside shooting in order to have good games. His overall stats are worse as he advances in the playoffs simply because that's normal against the best teams, not because he's any more limited than most reasonable people understand him to be.

I actually agree that he's not a top-15 player in general. I think he had top-15 value last year though. The difference is that he had such a ridiculous year shooting the ball that I'm not sure he can replicate that, so that's why I don't thinks he's a top-15 "talent" even though he had a top-15 season. He should have been all-NBA third team. It's hard to view him as that type of player, but you have to give credit where credit is due. If he has a year like that again, then I think he's probably top 15, or very close to it. That kind of efficiency on so many difficult shots while always drawing the other team's best wing defender (and often being double-teamed, especially when Giannis is on the bench) is insane. It's almost Durant-esque.

[skones]

We all remember what games Giannis has sat out the last two seasons.

We're gonna do this all over again this year, huh? Numbers without context are meaningless. I don't know what is so hard about understanding that the guy who hit 75% of his 3s against the Warriors and the guy who had 2 points against the Magic ARE THE SAME GUY. He's not divorced from any of our shortcomings. But by all means, let's have fun. Groundhog Day

You understand this is a 1,600 minute sample not just limited to the games Giannis sat out, right? What context would you like for a massive sample size of Khris' play with Giannis on the bench?

All that other stuff is just a bunch of noise, nobody here is absolving Khris of blame from some of our continued postseason exits or claiming he's a perfect player. Just you babbling on because the awesome player you irrationally hate continues to be awesome and it upsets you.

No I misread that part. Point stands though. And everyone knows it just no one wants to say.

NuMbErS wItHoUt CoNteXt, then ignores the actual context of the numbers? K. No, the point doesn't stand, because the logic you're using is FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY.

[theFireBlanket]

Would you rather be right or the Bucks win a ring. Answer truthfully

Sent from my SM-N960U using [url=http://r.tapatalk.com/by[list=][/list]o?rid=75835]RealGM mobile app[/url]

He is right though, the Bucks will have to win a championship in spite of this average Middling guy.

[humanrefutation]

I do like the fact that Middleton has become more aggressive as a player over the last couple years - looking for his shot instead of standing in a corner. I didn't like the fact that he waved off Holiday in that second-to-last possession against the Celtics - I'd have rather had Holiday in that spot, because I think he'll make the right play - but it was a reflection of the fact that Middleton is more comfortable asserting himself in that situation.

[DavidDunn21]

Statistics are SO MUCH fun, aren't they?! It's almost like you can make them say anything you want them to say!

Here's a bit of clarity from my perspective, but feel free to use the numbers you feel more comfortable with.

Khris Middleton has played in the playoffs 5 years. In four of the five years he's shot 42% from the floor or less. Three of those years were sub .400. The outlier year was Boston. (and we didn't win that series). Figuring in the Prunty Boston year skews all Middleton stats beyond recognition. Pretending he's a rock solid 21/7/5 on great shooting is simply a lie, because as everyone should know by now:

KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Last year in the playoffs he played 10 games. Five were against a bad Orlando team and five were against a very good Heat team.
4/12
1/8
7/17
7/19
7/16
12/24
6/15
7/16
12/28
8/25

Five wins. Five losses. A ton of bad turnovers. Because:
KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Would you rather be right or the Bucks win a ring. Answer truthfully

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Ask yourself the same question.

I've been right. I don't need to be more right. I can't even be more right. I didn't tell you to build up a persona pulling for the NBA version of Kirk Cousins. You did that. Go ahead and tell me how great his stats are. We haven't reached the Finals. We may not make it this year. We wasted multiple years pretending he was a star.

Everyone's turned on Bud.
Everyone turned on the players who aren't here.
Many are starting to turn on Giannis.
But Khris is the Teflon Don because YOU WOULD RATHER BE RIGHT than win a title. That's why nobody ever responds to my posts. You attack the messenger. Don't think I didn't notice you on your own podcast try to sneak in your Jrue will be the second best player on the team take. Everyone knows what's up. We're all just hoping that Jrue is just that great of a player that this thing can work.

If that somehow works, trust me, I've been rooting for the Bucks to win a title longer than you.

[coolhandluke121]

I didn't like the fact that he waved off Holiday in that second-to-last possession against the Celtics

I was fine with that. You often end up with a contested jumper in situations like that, and there's probably not 10 guys in the entire NBA better at that than Khris. Fouls are also common and he's one of the very best at the line too. Jrue would have been a fine option too of course. If they plan it right, they should probably try to get whomever has the weaker defender on him in the future. You don't see them operate that way very often though, much to my consternation - especially against Miami, who had multiple extremely weak defenders.

[buckboy]

Statistics are SO MUCH fun, aren't they?! It's almost like you can make them say anything you want them to say!

Here's a bit of clarity from my perspective, but feel free to use the numbers you feel more comfortable with.

Khris Middleton has played in the playoffs 5 years. In four of the five years he's shot 42% from the floor or less. Three of those years were sub .400. The outlier year was Boston. (and we didn't win that series). Figuring in the Prunty Boston year skews all Middleton stats beyond recognition. Pretending he's a rock solid 21/7/5 on great shooting is simply a lie, because as everyone should know by now:

KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Last year in the playoffs he played 10 games. Five were against a bad Orlando team and five were against a very good Heat team.
4/12
1/8
7/17
7/19
7/16
12/24
6/15
7/16
12/28
8/25

Five wins. Five losses. A ton of bad turnovers. Because:
KHRIS MIDDLETON IS A FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY PLAYER

Would you rather be right or the Bucks win a ring. Answer truthfully

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Ask yourself the same question.

I've been right. I don't need to be more right. I can't even be more right. I didn't tell you to build up a persona pulling for the NBA version of Kirk Cousins. You did that. Go ahead and tell me how great his stats are. We haven't reached the Finals. We may not make it this year. We wasted multiple years pretending he was a star.

Everyone's turned on Bud.
Everyone turned on the players who aren't here.
Many are starting to turn on Giannis.
But Khris is the Teflon Don because YOU WOULD RATHER BE RIGHT than win a title. That's why nobody ever responds to my posts. You attack the messenger. Don't think I didn't notice you on your own podcast try to sneak in your Jrue will be the second best player on the team take. Everyone knows what's up. We're all just hoping that Jrue is just that great of a player that this thing can work.

If that somehow works, trust me, I've been rooting for the Bucks to win a title longer than you.

You're the best. Don't ever change.

[ShootingtheJ]

I didn't like the fact that he waved off Holiday in that second-to-last possession against the Celtics

I was fine with that. You often end up with a contested jumper in situations like that, and there's probably not 10 guys in the entire NBA better at that than Khris. Fouls are also common and he's one of the very best at the line too. Jrue would have been a fine option too of course. If they plan it right, they should probably try to get whomever has the weaker defender on him in the future. You don't see them operate that way very often though, much to my consternation - especially against Miami, who had multiple extremely weak defenders.

Yeah I'd expect Khris to do that every time. Jrue is great, but Khris is simply a better isolation scorer.

[giannis and 1]

.539 but okay. I wish I could just add 4 to whatever I wanted. I'd be a lot more popular with the ladies.

Ahhh, you're talking about your height, right?

Talking millimeters to my dick.

At least you use the metric system.

Unlike these Americans.

[skones]

Have you guys seen how FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY Khris has been through these last four games?

57.5/51.8/100

Godt damn, please stop it Khris.

[blazza18]

Have always said if Midds shot basically 60/50/100 splits for the season he'd be the best player in the league.

[DavidDunn21]

Have you guys seen how FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY Khris has been through these last four games?

57.5/51.8/100

Godt damn, please stop it Khris.

Not sure you know what "streaky" means.

Also, we're 2-2.

What I did like about the way he played last night is he took it personally that Herro was trying to guard him. Obviously there's not much to criticize about his first four games.

The situation bears watching, to be sure. Did he have five turnovers? Yes.
Is it concerning that he can't seem to have a good game at the same time as Giannis? A little.
Did he do a lot of his work under no pressure after Jrue and Brook punched the Heat in the mouth? Yep.
Would we be 3-1 if he'd have hit the only pressure shot he's had this year? Yes.

But Khris is playing intense on ball defense and that stuff matters. As we've all said, if Jrue keeps bringing the accountability and intensity that Bud doesn't, look out. Now can we keep it up all year? Can the Bucks with four very good to great defenders build a winning culture? Or is it just that Miami embarrassed us?

I remain excited about this year

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

[Sigra]

I never expected Middleton being this good.

I was wrong about him.

[Ron Swanson]

I do wonder how long people are gonna hold on to their incredibly dumb Redd >> Middleton takes.

[skones]

Have you guys seen how FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY Khris has been through these last four games?

57.5/51.8/100

Godt damn, please stop it Khris.

Not sure you know what "streaky" means.

Also, we're 2-2.

What I did like about the way he played last night is he took it personally that Herro was trying to guard him. Obviously there's not much to criticize about his first four games.

The situation bears watching, to be sure. Did he have five turnovers? Yes.
Is it concerning that he can't seem to have a good game at the same time as Giannis? A little.
Did he do a lot of his work under no pressure after Jrue and Brook punched the Heat in the mouth? Yep.
Would we be 3-1 if he'd have hit the only pressure shot he's had this year? Yes.

But Khris is playing intense on ball defense and that stuff matters. As we've all said, if Jrue keeps bringing the accountability and intensity that Bud doesn't, look out. Now can we keep it up all year? Can the Bucks with four very good to great defenders build a winning culture? Or is it just that Miami embarrassed us?

I remain excited about this year

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

I do know what streaky is. I don't think you do, and that's why you continue with your nonsense. You legitimately used a ridiculous 10 game sample to illustrate a point earlier in this thread, and now "whoa whoa whoa u know not what streaky is, because it is 10 games not 4." I'd say listen to yourself, but it's clear you just like to hear yourself talk at this point. You missed the point of my post completely. Picking and choosing arbitrary sample sizes, as you have, DOES NOT PROVIDE CONTEXT which you've claimed is oh so important. That goes for 4 games, and it STILL goes for 10 games. A player who's as close as you can possibly get to 50/40/90 IS NOT fundamentally streaky. That's what consistency is. Name me a single player who isn't "FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY" and I'll come back with a stretch that makes you look stupid in their game logs. The only thing "fundamentally streaky" about anything is the nature of the game NOT Khris Middleton, but here you are spewing more garbage in season 2 of substantial improvement.

[DavidDunn21]

Have you guys seen how FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY Khris has been through these last four games?

57.5/51.8/100

Godt damn, please stop it Khris.

Not sure you know what "streaky" means.

Also, we're 2-2.

What I did like about the way he played last night is he took it personally that Herro was trying to guard him. Obviously there's not much to criticize about his first four games.

The situation bears watching, to be sure. Did he have five turnovers? Yes.
Is it concerning that he can't seem to have a good game at the same time as Giannis? A little.
Did he do a lot of his work under no pressure after Jrue and Brook punched the Heat in the mouth? Yep.
Would we be 3-1 if he'd have hit the only pressure shot he's had this year? Yes.

But Khris is playing intense on ball defense and that stuff matters. As we've all said, if Jrue keeps bringing the accountability and intensity that Bud doesn't, look out. Now can we keep it up all year? Can the Bucks with four very good to great defenders build a winning culture? Or is it just that Miami embarrassed us?

I remain excited about this year

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

I do know what streaky is. I don't think you do, and that's why you continue with your nonsense. You legitimately used a ridiculous 10 game sample to illustrate a point earlier in this thread, and now "whoa whoa whoa u know not what streaky is, because it is 10 games not 4." I'd say listen to yourself, but it's clear you just like to hear yourself talk at this point. You missed the point of my post completely. Picking and choosing arbitrary sample sizes, as you have, DOES NOT PROVIDE CONTEXT which you've claimed is oh so important. That goes for 4 games, and it STILL goes for 10 games. A player who's as close as you can possibly get to 50/40/90 IS NOT fundamentally streaky. That's what consistency is. Name me a single player who isn't "FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY" and I'll come back with a stretch that makes you look stupid in their game logs. The only thing "fundamentally streaky" about anything is the nature of the game NOT Khris Middleton, but here you are spewing more garbage in season 2 of substantial improvement.

You were saying?

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[HaroldinGMinor]

[skones]

You were saying?

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

That you're a word I don't want to say because it is a personal attack on a message board with rules? Yes, I still think that.

There's a reason a request for an unstreaky player was made, there's a reason it was ignored. It's because you've been fighting an uphill battle for over a year, and my request just makes it all the more steep for you. Some may say you'll just be walking uphill, in the snow, BOTH WAYS, about it.

The idea that you think you've made a point?

This guy is also FUNDAMENTALLY STREAKY CLICK HERE



Anyway, you were saying?