Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/Monta Shooting %)

[AussieBuck]

TBH I was thinking generic PNR guard and a shooting guard. Jennings could spot up while Beno ran the plays I guess.

[coolhandluke121]

Jennings and Udrih would start for D'Antoni. He has no problem benching people if they can't make it work.

[CanadaBucks]

TBH I was thinking generic PNR guard and a shooting guard. Jennings could spot up while Beno ran the plays I guess.

And we would have somewhere between 10-14 wins

[Ayt]

Jennings and Udrih would start for D'Antoni. He has no problem benching people if they can't make it work.

He'd likely hate Ellis as a guard since he can't shoot. He'd use him like he used Barbosa.

[bigdog34]

Blah Blah Blah Blah. That's all I'm reading here. I'm thinking the whole ideas of this thread was to assist our local media (Gery W, Wagner, 1250 WSSP and 540 ESPN, local sportscasts of Fox, NBC and ABC) to start DEMANDING more out of skiles and Hammond when it comes to the horrendous shooting of Ellis and Jennings....primarily Ellis. Something needs to be done to assist with getting Ellis out of here and this thread was supposed to be that outlet. Let's start a Twitter Campain... #Ellisfor6man, #PleasetradeEllisyesterday, #SkilesneedstobenchEllis, #BucksfandDEMANDmorefromHammondSkiles, #Ourbackcourtisn'tworking, #Bucksplayoffs=Ellistothebenchortraded, #TradeMonta, #NomoreMonta, etc etc etc.... These need to be sent to:
@620wtmj, @nbated, @Bill_Micheals, @pipspicks, @EvanWFitzgerald, @WSSP_Big_Show, @Dario_Melendez, @GeryWoelfel, @MichealHuntMJS, @1250WSSP, @DrewOlsonMKE, @Bucks, @ESPNMilwaukee, @RussellOnSports,

So there you go.... start the attack!! MONTA NEEDS TO GO!!!

[Ayt]

Oh look! A Monta fan. How cute!

[bigdog34]

Oh look! A Monta fan. How cute!

Did you even read my post? I want Monta out of here.

[ampd]

The myth of the necessity of a low post big needs to end. The current rules favor face up players that can get to the rim and get to the line. Guys that can command a double. Look at the Thunder, Heat, Knicks, etc. - their bigs are either face up guys or garbage men. All third options or less.

Bigs yes. However, the Heat big 3 all post up on a regular basis when the matchup dictates it, even if its not their strength, Melo scores a ton of his baskets on isolations in the high / low post, especially when he is at the 3, the Lakers have had multiple guys, the Jazz had multiple guys, the Spurs have had multiple guys, the Bulls have Boozer, Boston has KG, Mavs Dirk, Hawks Horford and Smith, Grizzlies have lots of them, etc.

Sure a lot of those big men are also good in face up situations, and some of the guys are either big guards or 3s that can take advantage of matchups. But the idea that post scoring is dead just isn't true. The idea that to win you need a big center who you just toss the ball to every time down the court like what we were trying to do with Bogut, or what teams in the past did with Shaq, Kareem, Zo, etc is less popular sure.

Its not so much having a post scorer per se as having versatility that makes you harder to defend. The only way you can get away with not having that is if your PG is special (Nash, CP3) and you surround him with floor spacing.

We are entirely one dimensional, and our parts don't fit together very well. We love to bring shooters off curls but our bigs are terrible at setting screens. Our small guards run a ton of pick and rolls but the pick literally never frees them for anything but a jumper because our bigs aren't a threat in the roll and their picks rarely actually pick anyone. We have nobody who can score in isolations other than Tobes who is 20 years old.

[Ayt]

Oh look! A Monta fan. How cute!

Did you even read my post? I want Monta out of here.

I thought you were being sarcastic given how you started the post.

[tsherkin]

The myth of the necessity of a low post big needs to end. The current rules favor face up players that can get to the rim and get to the line.

It was never a necessity to have a low-post iso big. The reason Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem and so forth were good for an offense was that they scored at high efficiency, produced offensive rebounds, facilitated ball movement and exerted defensive impact. Post play is still HIGHLY valuable, but there isn't a single player in the league with the kind of post capacity those guys had now that Duncan's a senior citizen in the NBA.

FWIW, fouls drawn aside, post offense not leading to dunks or layups is typically only slightly more efficient ITO raw FG% than shots from 16-23 feet. The shots are easier to rebound, though, they open up 3pt shooters and they do tend to draw fouls more effectively if you're not a wuss like Al Jefferson. Biggest issues someone like Dwight has are weaker passing and shooting touch. Ewing and Olajuwon had shots to 17 feet. Duncan has extended his from 13 to 20 over the years. Even Robinson could hit foul line jumpers.

It's all about possession control and efficient offense, which post play facilitates far more effectively than perimeter isos, especially anything Monta (who was only ever a worthwhile as a 3rd-scorer type working off-ball) and Jennings run.

It was never true that a low post big man was REQUIRED, it's just that a talent like that is a super high-end compilation of things needed to win. The earlier comment someone made about ORBs is a key point: Milwaukee is a brick factory, so they'd be best-served running a Reggie Evans type out there, a 10%+ ORB type player to help retain offensive possession and limit FB opportunities the other way. Long shots, long boards, more likely DRB than ORB, so weak for defense.

Food for thought.

Guys that can command a double. Look at the Thunder, Heat, Knicks, etc. - their bigs are either face up guys or garbage men. All third options or less.

ACTUALLY, Lebron, Wade and Melo all post up quite a bit. Melo the most before, Lebron now moving in that direction since joining the Heat. His passing from the post is a DEADLY weapon even 20 feet from the rim with his back to the bucket.

The NBA is an arms race and the teams I listed have weapons. The Bucks do not. Even slightly above average guard play with the current front court would reap 50 wins.

GOOD guard play, not "slightly above average," would be necessary. It's not true that the rules magically make players competent. You'll notice that you still need athleticism to draw fouls and even a tank like Russell Westbrook doesn't do a great job of it. You still need to finish well at the rim, hit your FTs and often need to have a secondary weapon like a 3pt shot as well. The Bucks would be better off running an off-ball 2 like a Klay Thompson type, using more of Dunleavy and maybe investigating a Ryan Anderson type of stretch 4 who can rebound. Trading off some D for O is definitely required if they want to step forward. They're the 4th-worst O in the league and defense alone wins nothing. Defense-only teams also tend to win slightly less than offense-only teams. Also, they blow at defensive rebounding, so improving that would be better for the D AND for the chance to ignite the break. Improving FT% wouldn't hurt either (though Dunleavy probably will, at least), nor would taking more corner 3s and fewer iso chucks from Jennings and Ellis. From them, fewer 3s in transition with no offensive rebounders in position would be a smart change, because that's usually just a wasted possession.

[AussieBuck]

TBH I was thinking generic PNR guard and a shooting guard. Jennings could spot up while Beno ran the plays I guess.

And we would have somewhere between 10-14 wins

[InsideOut]

Meeks was a rookie playing for a hardass coach. As much as Skiles is an inept offensive mind, was it his fault that Jodie Meeks couldn't hit a jumper to save his life?

And to say Jefferson improved when he left is laughable. His numbers went down all across the board (even efficiency) and he played as a fourth or fifth option on the Spurs. He did not improve at all.

Why don't we talk about all the guys who got worse when they left here? Delfino, Thomas, Ridnour, Livingston etc. Where do they fall into the argument that Skiles can't coach?

As for our current crop of guys, I'm not sure what to think. Sure Tobes deserves more then 0 minutes a game but he sure isn't looking like the 15-20 ppg player most people thought. Ersan has played ATROCIOUS compared to where he was last season. Skiles is in the right to sit him as much as he does. Also, bringing up Jennings is laughable. Skiles gives him the biggest leash of just about any player/coach relationship in the NBA.

That is a great point that I didn't think about. RJ didn't improve and Meeks was here a short time and as a rookie he should get a little better as time goes by. However, you did a great job of pointing out all the guys that got worse just after leaving the Bucks. Right now it is fair to say that of the guys that left the Bucks the vast majority got worse rather than got better. This might be why Skiles has a reputation of getting the most out of players. It would sure help to figure Skiles out if Hammond got him some good players to coach. The other option is when he leaves after the year we’ll see how many games they win without him. Based on the Bucks history before Skiles I’d guess the next coach wins less games.

[randy84]

Meeks was a rookie playing for a hardass coach. As much as Skiles is an inept offensive mind, was it his fault that Jodie Meeks couldn't hit a jumper to save his life?

And to say Jefferson improved when he left is laughable. His numbers went down all across the board (even efficiency) and he played as a fourth or fifth option on the Spurs. He did not improve at all.

Why don't we talk about all the guys who got worse when they left here? Delfino, Thomas, Ridnour, Livingston etc. Where do they fall into the argument that Skiles can't coach?

As for our current crop of guys, I'm not sure what to think. Sure Tobes deserves more then 0 minutes a game but he sure isn't looking like the 15-20 ppg player most people thought. Ersan has played ATROCIOUS compared to where he was last season. Skiles is in the right to sit him as much as he does. Also, bringing up Jennings is laughable. Skiles gives him the biggest leash of just about any player/coach relationship in the NBA.

That is a great point that I didn't think about. RJ didn't improve and Meeks was here a short time and as a rookie he should get a little better as time goes by. However, you did a great job of pointing out all the guys that got worse just after leaving the Bucks. Right now it is fair to say that of the guys that left the Bucks the vast majority got worse rather than got better. This might be why Skiles has a reputation of getting the most out of players. It would sure help to figure Skiles out if Hammond got him some good players to coach. The other option is when he leaves after the year we’ll see how many games they win without him. Based on the Bucks history before Skiles I’d guess the next coach wins less games.

Your assuming that Skiles has no input on player acquisition, which is an assumption that I highly doubt. (See Bogut/Ellis)

[Rockmaninoff]

Yeah, I was talking back to the basket low post. I understand that Melo, Bron, etc. 'post up', but they generally just receive the ball and pivot to a triple threat position immediately. It's what Tobias Harris should do for the Bucks.

I enjoyed the replies non-the-less.

[Ayt]

I know I'm simply repeating what others have said, but you do not need a back to the basket low post player. The top 5 teams in ORTG this year are as follows:

OKC
NYK
MIA
LAC
SAS

None of those teams have a back to the basket low post player. The only player that could even qualify is Duncan, but the Spurs kill teams with the pick and roll with either Parker or Ginobli much more so than with Duncan in the post.

As sad as it is to say, back to the basket offense is dead.

Edit:
Actually, the next 5 are as follows:
LAL
DEN
HOU
BKY
UTA

Overall, back to the basket low post play is almost nonexistent in the top 10 offensive teams in the NBA. Howard, of course, is used in the post, but he isn't a primary option. Duncan, who is generally used as a pick and roll player, is in SA. Lopez is a very good scorer for BKY, but they run a ton of pick and roll with him.

That's about it.

In the modern NBA, the ballhandler in the pick and roll is much more important than the pick setter. Back to the basket offense is basically dead.

[emunney]

Turning to face is one of the necessary skills of a back to the basket player. All of those teams have effective post options. I think going to the post is more reliable and consistent than it is awesomely efficient, though. Except for an elite historical few, of course.

[Baddy Chuck]

OKC
NYK
MIA
LAC
SAS

As sad as it is to say, back to the basket offense is dead.

Basically all you've pointed out is the NBA is a superstar league, which it has always been.

[emunney]

Also, I think our best post player is Monta. Late in games when we're struggling to score, it's crazy that we give him or Jennings the ball 30 feet away from the hoop instead of getting Monta the ball 8-10 feet away where he can turn either way and kill guys with his quickness and double team recognition.

[Ayt]

Also, I think our best post player is Monta. Late in games when we're struggling to score, it's crazy that we give him or Jennings the ball 30 feet away from the hoop instead of getting Monta the ball 8-10 feet away where he can turn either way and kill guys with his quickness and double team recognition.

Offensive freestyle brought to you by Scooter Skiles!

In other words, let your idiot guards do whatever they want. Pickup ball in the NBA FTW!

It is **** embarrassing watching the offensive scheme of a team like Minny compared to the useless "offense" we run. I love defense, but I can't wait until Skiles is fired because he is a **** imbecile when it comes to offense.

[tsherkin]

Also, I think our best post player is Monta.

He's had under 20 post-ups and shot under 42% FG on those post-ups. He's drawn 4 fouls on 18 possessions, so he has an unsustainable draw rate making him appear better there than he is. He can shoot around screens, that's what he does well, and he should do a lot more of that and a TON less of anything ever to do with being on-ball.

Yeah, I was talking back to the basket low post. I understand that Melo, Bron, etc. 'post up', but they generally just receive the ball and pivot to a triple threat position immediately. It's what Tobias Harris should do for the Bucks.

Mmm, they both back down equally, although I should point out that Hakeem was a deadly and prolific face-up scorer, as was Patrick Ewing. Dwight Howard's favorite move, that sweep-through into a drive into the bottom half of the circle? Learned directly from Ewing, who spammed that and a 17-footer once he started scoring a lot. Unless you're built like Shaq, even primary post players (like Dirk post-07) need a lot of face up game. It's fundamental stuff. It IS true that there aren't a ton of good post players in the league right now, but that's not atypical.

Meantime Ayt, again, you're talking mainly about talent cycle more than anything else, nothing more. Guards have always been the primary offensive weapons in the league, that's not actually a new development. Back to the basket offense has been widely misunderstood by fans who think Shaq is the model of the post player when he isn't. Tim Duncan is, and even at his peak he was a guy who loved face-up possessions.