Poll: The Elephant in the Room (Jennings/Monta Shooting %)

[Baddy Chuck]

Meeks was a rookie playing for a hardass coach. As much as Skiles is an inept offensive mind, was it his fault that Jodie Meeks couldn't hit a jumper to save his life?

And to say Jefferson improved when he left is laughable. His numbers went down all across the board (even efficiency) and he played as a fourth or fifth option on the Spurs. He did not improve at all.

Why don't we talk about all the guys who got worse when they left here? Delfino, Thomas, Ridnour, Livingston etc. Where do they fall into the argument that Skiles can't coach?

As for our current crop of guys, I'm not sure what to think. Sure Tobes deserves more then 0 minutes a game but he sure isn't looking like the 15-20 ppg player most people thought. Ersan has played ATROCIOUS compared to where he was last season. Skiles is in the right to sit him as much as he does. Also, bringing up Jennings is laughable. Skiles gives him the biggest leash of just about any player/coach relationship in the NBA.

[Johnlac1]

Like a lot of people on this forum, I don't think a backcourt of Ellis and Jennings playing at the same time can work. If I had to get rid of one or the other, I'd get rid of Jennings. The ball needs to go inside more, and neither are inclined to get the ball there. There are no adequate big pgs in the league to pair with Ellis. The best big pg prospect I've seen in college for many years is Carter-Williams of Syracuse. If he is paired with Ellis, he'd be the big athletic pg pass-first guard the Bucks need. Either Jennings or Ellis could work off the bench as a spark, but I doubt either one would tolerate coming off the bench. Jennings will never be a quality point guard. He just doesn't see the floor well and his inclination remains to shoot first. Unlike Jennings, Ellis has a record of efficient scoring, so I'm hoping his current dreadful shooting is temporary. I've never seen a player miss so many shots at the rim as Ellis has this year. You've got to believe more of his shots will start dropping. It's not like he can't get a good shot.

The frontcourt holds promise, especially Sanders and Henson. I'd hold steady for this season, because I just don't see any team giving up a player that could help the Bucks.

[Baddy Chuck]

Unlike Jennings, Ellis has a record of efficient scoring, so I'm hoping his current dreadful shooting is temporary.

He hasn't been an efficient scorer for 4, going on 5 seasons now.

[CanadaBucks]

Unlike Jennings, Ellis has a record of efficient scoring, so I'm hoping his current dreadful shooting is temporary.

Um...I'm going to suggest ducking for a bit.

[LUKE23]

GoS always uses this "guys tank when they play here" line, but then doesn't acknowledge that every veteran that tanked here stayed in the tank. Using Meeks as an example is laughable, considering he was traded halfway through his rookie season. Come on.

Jefferson, Maggette, Salmons, Jax. Who was a standout after leaving?

They were bad acquisitions at the time and that's the issue. Just as Ellis was a bad acquisition at the time.

[Baddy Chuck]

GoS always uses this "guys tank when they play here" line, but then doesn't acknowledge that every veteran that tanked here stayed in the tank. Using Meeks as an example is laughable, considering he was traded halfway through his rookie season. Come on.

Jefferson, Maggette, Salmons, Jax. Who was a standout after leaving?

They were bad acquisitions at the time and that's the issue. Just as Ellis was a bad acquisition at the time.

Salmons was a good trade at the time from a "win now" perspective. We gave up nothing to get him. Resigning to a contract based off play that he's never shown before in his career despite being at an age where one rarely improves was the problem.

Also I guess you could argue at the time the Jefferson trade wasn't atrocious either but when things fell apart not trading him was obviously at fault.

[LUKE23]

Yeah, I didn't mean the trade, the extension.

Jefferson was actually solid here, better than when he left.

I guess my point is that this isn't a "Milwaukee" thing. If we had acquired James Harden he'd be owning people here, to use one example.

[Jammo29]

I know this is being discussed in other places but thought at least a thread on it might get the attention of our swag local media. At least Ted Davis was discussing it the other night and it seemed like Jon Barry was fixated on it during the game last night.

A poll question is above. I chose the January 15th date to reflect that trades generally aren't made over the Holidays and that a trade may involve Ersan who isn't eligible to be dealt until January 15th.

Luke highlights it well with the stats below.

59 players in the NBA scoring 15.0+ PPG, rank in TS:

#52: Jennings
#58: Ellis

We all see the backcourt isn't working. What date will the Bucks?

We'll trade for the guy ranked 59th!

I don't know why everyone is so concerned. Remember Ellis said that he will shoot his way out of his slump. The game yesterday just shows how hard he is working on getting back into form!!

[Baddy Chuck]

We'll trade for the guy ranked 59th!

Without knowing who it is, I'd guess that #59 is Bargnani. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Johnny Hambone go after him at some point.

[LUKE23]

Surprisingly, it's Love.

[CanadaBucks]

Surprisingly, it's Love.

Even with all the FTs?

[Baddy Chuck]

Is Love's sample size the smallest of all the players in the bottom 10 though? He's only played like 12 or so games I believe?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Meeks was a rookie playing for a hardass coach. As much as Skiles is an inept offensive mind, was it his fault that Jodie Meeks couldn't hit a jumper to save his life?

And to say Jefferson improved when he left is laughable. His numbers went down all across the board (even efficiency) and he played as a fourth or fifth option on the Spurs. He did not improve at all.

Why don't we talk about all the guys who got worse when they left here? Delfino, Thomas, Ridnour, Livingston etc. Where do they fall into the argument that Skiles can't coach?

As for our current crop of guys, I'm not sure what to think. Sure Tobes deserves more then 0 minutes a game but he sure isn't looking like the 15-20 ppg player most people thought. Ersan has played ATROCIOUS compared to where he was last season. Skiles is in the right to sit him as much as he does. Also, bringing up Jennings is laughable. Skiles gives him the biggest leash of just about any player/coach relationship in the NBA.

so you admit "skiles is an inept offensive mind"... which is the only major point im trying to make, but then say im wrong. i dont even get why youre arguing with me about this.

skiles is an inept offensive mind, and players either dont progress or regress here. so those 2 points we arent debating. why your so hell bent to insist on separating them is weird.... id continue to suggest there is at least a small association.

[Rockmaninoff]

The myth of the necessity of a low post big needs to end. The current rules favor face up players that can get to the rim and get to the line. Guys that can command a double. Look at the Thunder, Heat, Knicks, etc. - their bigs are either face up guys or garbage men. All third options or less.

The NBA is an arms race and the teams I listed have weapons. The Bucks do not. Even slightly above average guard play with the current front court would reap 50 wins.

[Baddy Chuck]

There is no doubt Skiles is an awful offensive coach, there is no way I put that on these players shortcoming on him though. These players were bad before we traded for them.

[Baddy Chuck]

To make my point a little clearer, what I'm saying is I don't think those players (Maggette, Ellis, post contract year Salmons, Jackson) at the point in their career we acquired them wouldn't thrive in under even a "good" offensive coach. These players are just inefficient, ball stoppers or in all of their cases, both. A good offensive coach wouldn't even want them most likely because they aren't good offensive players in a system. They all passed in an ISO orientated offense and that just doesn't work in the NBA unless you are a superstar. Empty stats, broken system players. Skiles can't fix that and honestly, this season he's given Monta all the free reign he wants on the offensive end, it's all on Monta right now. He just sucks.

[Ayt]

Skiles can take a little blame for players not scoring well here given that there's little to no offense run and his lineups almost always make no sense at all offensively but the guys that you're stunned at failing were totally predicable which is kind of how some of us predicted it. Meeks, yeah I'd say he had his confidence crushed.

Yep. It is foolish to state that coaches don't have an appreciable impact on an offense.

If D'Antoni was our coach we'd proabably go with a starting 5 of Jennings/Ellis/Dun/Ers/Sanders. Dunleavy would also play closer to 36 minutes than 26. A guy like Udrih would also be great in his system and would get more minutes than he's gotten the last two years.

He'd probably also use Tobes as a backup PF.

[AussieBuck]

The myth of the necessity of a low post big needs to end. The current rules favor face up players that can get to the rim and get to the line. Guys that can command a double. Look at the Thunder, Heat, Knicks, etc. - their bigs are either face up guys or garbage men. All third options or less.

The NBA is an arms race and the teams I listed have weapons. The Bucks do not. Even slightly above average guard play with the current front court would reap 50 wins.

[AussieBuck]

Skiles can take a little blame for players not scoring well here given that there's little to no offense run and his lineups almost always make no sense at all offensively but the guys that you're stunned at failing were totally predicable which is kind of how some of us predicted it. Meeks, yeah I'd say he had his confidence crushed.

Yep. It is foolish to state that coaches don't have an appreciable impact on an offense.

If D'Antoni was our coach we'd proabably go with a starting 5 of Jennings/Ellis/Dun/Ers/Sanders. Dunleavy would also play closer to 36 minutes than 26. A guy like Udrih would also be great in his system and would get more minutes than he's gotten the last two years.

He'd probably also use Tobes as a backup PF.

If he'd have Sanders/Udoh all the time at C that could be a decent team. It would also be a ton of fun when he switched it up to:

Guard/guard/Dun/Tobes/Ersan with Tobes pwning 7 footers in the PNR.

[Baddy Chuck]

Skiles can take a little blame for players not scoring well here given that there's little to no offense run and his lineups almost always make no sense at all offensively but the guys that you're stunned at failing were totally predicable which is kind of how some of us predicted it. Meeks, yeah I'd say he had his confidence crushed.

Yep. It is foolish to state that coaches don't have an appreciable impact on an offense.

If D'Antoni was our coach we'd proabably go with a starting 5 of Jennings/Ellis/Dun/Ers/Sanders. Dunleavy would also play closer to 36 minutes than 26. A guy like Udrih would also be great in his system and would get more minutes than he's gotten the last two years.

He'd probably also use Tobes as a backup PF.

If he'd have Sanders/Udoh all the time at C that could be a decent team. It would also be a ton of fun when he switched it up to:

Guard/guard/Dun/Tobes/Ersan with Tobes pwning 7 footers in the PNR.

That would be ugly as sin. Jennings and Monta in a 6 second offense. I would rip my eyes out.