Per Woelfel, McKinney to be let go

[MickeyDavis]

"Young LeBron" was here before LED/Kidd/Thorn

[Diggr14]

Hedge fund owners doing hedge fund things.

It's either a shrewd revamp of the FO into a younger, fresh outlook or it's a dumpster fire. Im leaning toward it was a dumpster that was filled with Lasry trash and mistakes and now Edens is pouring gasoline on it and starting over.

[tydett]

Here's my thing: if Giannis leaves in 4 years, does anybody expect this team to recover with this ownership group and the way they've managed the team thus far? We'll be right back where we started with Kohl.

[bigkurty]

Amongst McKinney's comments before Horst was hired:

McKinney noted that Zanik has been with the team for over a year and already has performed well in spearheading the pre-draft process. With that in mind, would it be a big deal to him if the Bucks went into the draft without a permanent GM in place?

"It potentially could be," McKinney said. "The big question will be who will make the decisions? We've got Rod Thorn here also working with us consulting with the team, working on behalf of the owners until something happens. He's abreast of everything that we're thinking and we're doing and we'll wait to see what plays out."

Buckpack posted here about what a bad hire Horst was, about how he's in way over his head.

I am not sold on him being in way over his head personally. I mean maybe he is but maybe he is not and info is coming from envious members of the old guard. It can be very difficult for the young guy to grab the reigns in an environment like that where the old guard is fighting for their power too. I can't blame Horst for that. I basically figured out the same thing during the course of my career and eventually said screw it, I am starting my own company. But for Horst's dream job, that wasn't an option. The only way he could have done what he did at his age in a culture and demographic like that was for an owner to choose him and empower him.

Now that it is done, they have to sort out the culture issues. i.e. McKinney supported Zanick. McKinney pretty clearly thought Thorn wasn't a necessary voice in the org. if you read between the lines. McKinney was also probably wondering why he didn't get the opportunity to interview if Horst got to. I imagine its probable that McKinney voiced various opinions like that around the org to different people. Those whispers get around and eventually you have to nip that in the butt to keep a solid culture where people understand and respect the hierarchy. I am sure McKinney is a great guy but its probably not a fit anymore. Things happened and now its best for both parties to move on. There doesn't have to be any sort of bad blood in a situation like that. I am sure McKinney felt **** initially but he will get another job and be happier it happened sooner than later.

[M-C-G]

"Young LeBron" was here before LED/Kidd/Thorn

No one is giving them credit for that, people are saying that "this is the most down I am on the Bucks ever", need snap out of it and realize this is in fact the best team we've had in decades, and people should be excited about it.

[jimmybones]

I've heard nothing but good things about him. I have a feeling there's a big Lasry vs. Edens pissing contest going on.

If this is true it's disgusting. And I'm not even referring to the pee.

Keep your eyes on the big prize.....any arena cost overruns. LED are responsible for them.

This is a time in a project like this where this stuff really starts to add up.

Again, disgusting.... they're going to massively profit in the long run. Why cut corners now? Cheap on GM, selling picks, paycuts to employees. What in the acutal F, man. F!!!

I keep in touch with my ticker rep. Haven't gotten season tickets in a while but was considering getting some this year. I guess I'll hold off. I'll let my rep know that it's because I don't trust this front office. I can't invest in this debacle.

Dont say front office, say owners.

[M-C-G]

We have a new Arena going opening next season, a 22-year old All-Star Starter/All-NBA'r/MIP, the Rookie of the Year, an intriguing 20-year Center prospect while coming out of a playoff series where we had a legit chance of winning. Not to mention we got rid of John Hammond.
.

Also silly to deem this "the lowest point of Bucks' fandom" considering Jabari/Thon/Brogdon/Middleton/Giannis. Not only promising-to-good-to-great-to-potentially-one-of-the-best-ever on the court, but by all accounts seemingly high quality human beings off the court. All five guys unique and likable. Add a new arena/entertainment district and its a great time to be a Bucks' fan.

Agreed. There are things that are going on that I am not happy about, things that could cause problems for us, but to ignore that we have maybe the most coveted young player in the league, we have a top 10 player that is putting up stats like a young Lebron, it's crazy what a good position we are in right now. Even as messy as our cap is, it's manageable.

Not saying there isn't a bunch of risk with the owners, new GM, etc., but I can't really think of a time that I was happier with the players on the team. Most upside, high character dudes we have had in a couple of decades. Not a bunch of Gary Neal and Stephen Jacksons out there. And as much as they are overusing "Bucks DNA", it's nice that there is some kind of vision around the types of players are bringing in, and I am just damn glad that character and work ethic are part of that DNA

How did the messy cap, ownership interference with the FO and no lack of long term vision end up with young LeBron?

Kid, I'm not sure what you are debating here? I'm fully acknowledging concerns about the front office, but we have a good team and some good pieces on the court, including a top 10 player which I never really thought I would see again in my lifetime after the 15 year winter left in George Karl's wake.

I'm fully on board with a David Griffin type hire to give some stability, to manage the owners and to remove Thorn. No arguments on wanting that stuff all straightened out, but that doesn't change the fact we have some awesome pieces and a fun team right now.

[Ron Swanson]

I have no idea what Buck Pack's motives or connections are (I certainly appreciate them), but he's prone to having personal opinions on things just like the rest of us. Personnel moves and front office politics are one thing, but whether or not Horst is a "good or bad" choice for GM is subjective and entirely opinion based.

[MickeyDavis]

I have no idea what Buck Pack's motives or connections are (I certainly appreciate them), but he's prone to having personal opinions on things just like the rest of us. Personnel moves and front office politics are one thing, but whether or not Horst is a "good or bad" choice for GM is subjective and entirely opinion based.

That's true. I don't know who BP is but I would venture that he has a more informed opinion than the rest of us (99% of us had never heard of Horst). It doesn't mean he's right but it means when he talks I'll take notice.

[OneMan]

One interesting thing a friend of mine told was that the Bucks really skew young as a hiring philosophy.....perhaps Hammond's age was the issue with bringing him back, hence going with his younger protege....plus younger people are generally less expensive.

In fairness to the Bucks they should be allowed to trim the fat. I'm not really sure what that Erika Johnson did by way of example. They hired a ton of staff and I'm sure a bunch ended up being redundant.

I agree PP. As I stated earlier, I really liked McKinney and he was (and is) certainly respected by his peers. But, let's be real: this was an inevitability. I really don't think this anything to be up in arms over.

All the other extra stuff in the report sounds like typical Gery WOEFUL BS. It's odd because I thought everyone wanted the Bucks to clean house the minute LED bought the team? They start to clean house and everyone loses their minds.

[fansinceforever]

"Young LeBron" was here before LED/Kidd/Thorn

No one is giving them credit for that, people are saying that "this is the most down I am on the Bucks ever", need snap out of it and realize this is in fact the best team we've had in decades, and people should be excited about it.

I agree with this. The FO situation is disconcerting but this is the best position this franchise has been in my lifetime, save for 2001 maybe. I understand LED had nothing to do with the main reason for that but all the same, he's here and he's not going anywhere for a while.

I'm not going to freak out over a new GM clearing out the old and bringing in his guys. That happens everywhere.

If in a year, we haven't improved, are still in cap hell and the FO is still making head scratching mistakes then i'll be the first one with my pitchfork out. Right now, i'm ok.

[bigkurty]

"Young LeBron" was here before LED/Kidd/Thorn

No one is giving them credit for that, people are saying that "this is the most down I am on the Bucks ever", need snap out of it and realize this is in fact the best team we've had in decades, and people should be excited about it.

Ha, you have a point. We have Giannis, the ROY, Thon, a wild card in Jabari who has a ceiling through the roof and the most potential we have ever had in the last 20-30 years as a team. But we also lived through those years so I can see why people are doom and gloom. We have been trained to be that way cause the team is bound to screw it all up based on past results. It is impossible to know whether to be excited or scared to death about all these FO moves. Each side has valid arguments to support there pov. I mean the guys in charge now were here while we drafted and acquired our core. They were also here while things like the Plumlee signing and the Vazquez trade that even us laymen on a forum knew immediately were indefensible and completely **** moves. Its like Frank said in the LOB pod today. As outsiders, its impossible to parse blame or credit to those individual moves from the outside. The owners should know how to parse them though so for now I am going to give them some credit for being successful people and assume they are making some solid and educated decisions. It's kind of like a draft pick anyway. We won't really know how good these moves are for a few years basically.

[paulpressey25]

All the other extra stuff in the report sounds like typical Gery WOEFUL BS. It's odd because I thought everyone wanted the Bucks to clean house the minute LED bought the team? They start to clean house and everyone loses their minds.

Cleaning the house is a two step process. Step one is taking out the junk. Step two is getting the right person to fix things back up. We still don't have that veteran NBA executive in place who is successful, can set a vision and has real power. We've got the committee of helpers all intermixed with multiple owners as we did under Herb.

[averageposter]

Its interesting to me that the same guys responsible for hiring marketing and PR are making this big of a mess out of the basketball side hires. The guys who brought us, alternate courts, some pretty nice improvements to in game food/entertainment, the 10 win guarantee, an effort to weed out out of state Credit Card purchases of playoff tix, the upcoming Mecca game which are all great and sometimes inventive moves. But the basketball side has Rod Thorn leading the charge to find GM candidates that were uninspiring, old guard retreads, and our own staff.

The GM search was a train wreck, and I get weeding people you inherited out or need to staff with the new GM regime but there are some guys with good reputations being let go. It has to all work out seamlessly from here forward for the health of the team at a critical juncture but also because this is so weirdly handled from the top down.

[M-C-G]

I have no idea what Buck Pack's motives or connections are (I certainly appreciate them), but he's prone to having personal opinions on things just like the rest of us. Personnel moves and front office politics are one thing, but whether or not Horst is a "good or bad" choice for GM is subjective and entirely opinion based.

That's true. I don't know who BP is but I would venture that he has a more informed opinion than the rest of us (99% of us had never heard of Horst). It doesn't mean he's right but it means when he talks I'll take notice.

I suspect I know who he is, but always hate it being discussed, because I wouldn't want to ever get his source outed...That said, I think his connections run with a lot of the old blood around the organization, a number of people that probably are rightfully unhappy with some things they have seen since the new owners came in place.

Also, I think people ran with the comment he was in over his head and not qualified. I could see the over his head piece being specific with managing the owners, Thorn, Kidd and let's be honest, in spite of being Hammond's right hand man, his qualifications paled in comparison to some of the other candidates.

Add in the perception that he was hired to be a pawn (though I don't get the sense he is), our owners messy GM search, doing Zanik dirty, owner infighting, the under current that this means Kidd has more power, the press conference where he looked nervous, and whatever other 20 things, it was a perfect storm for a vote of no confidence, but almost all of that has nothing to do with his actual GM skills (or lack there of).

I'll give him some time to make his mark on this team. I will say, getting creative and moving up for cash for a guy like Frank Jackson on top of drafting Brown, sure would have been an easy way to add talent and get people giving him a longer leash. What we do know is that he had plans to move up, he contingency plans to move down, he moved up in the second to get the guy he wanted, and he feels that the guy we got in the first was coveted not just by our staff but multiple other teams. So far, so good, not great, but good.

[paulpressey25]

Its interesting to me that the same guys responsible for hiring marketing and PR are making this big of a mess out of the basketball side hires.

Yep. LED have been fantastic in all these other areas. Too many to count.

But in the end we've got a couple super fans wanting to really be active on the basketball side of things.

They've now had three chances to get this right.

a) In June 2014 after they bought, they could have had a successful NBA exec to take over as POBO and clean house. But they hired Kidd in this nebulous coach/quasi-GM role while keeping Hammond.

b) After the trade deadline internal mess in February of 2016 they could have cleaned house but instead gave Kidd and Hammond extensions.

c) After Hammond left last month.

Maybe they'll nail this draft and the FA period. Plausible it could happen. Just harder to do with an bad FO structure.

[Ron Swanson]

It all comes back to the original comment in their first press conference where they said they'd "let the basketball people make the basketball decisions". If they're gonna have their Mark Attanasio epiphany moment and let the GM/front-office people make the important basketball decisions, then great. If not, then they're liars and should be called out for it.

[JimmyTheKid]

I have no idea what Buck Pack's motives or connections are (I certainly appreciate them), but he's prone to having personal opinions on things just like the rest of us. Personnel moves and front office politics are one thing, but whether or not Horst is a "good or bad" choice for GM is subjective and entirely opinion based.

That's true. I don't know who BP is but I would venture that he has a more informed opinion than the rest of us (99% of us had never heard of Horst). It doesn't mean he's right but it means when he talks I'll take notice.

I suspect I know who he is, but always hate it being discussed, because I wouldn't want to ever get his source outed...That said, I think his connections run with a lot of the old blood around the organization, a number of people that probably are rightfully unhappy with some things they have seen since the new owners came in place.

Also, I think people ran with the comment he was in over his head and not qualified. I could see the over his head piece being specific with managing the owners, Thorn, Kidd and let's be honest, in spite of being Hammond's right hand man, his qualifications paled in comparison to some of the other candidates.

Add in the perception that he was hired to be a pawn (though I don't get the sense he is), our owners messy GM search, doing Zanik dirty, owner infighting, the under current that this means Kidd has more power, the press conference where he looked nervous, and whatever other 20 things, it was a perfect storm for a vote of no confidence, but almost all of that has nothing to do with his actual GM skills (or lack there of).

I'll give him some time to make his mark on this team. I will say, getting creative and moving up for cash for a guy like Frank Jackson on top of drafting Brown, sure would have been an easy way to add talent and get people giving him a longer leash. What we do know is that he had plans to move up, he contingency plans to move down, he moved up in the second to get the guy he wanted, and he feels that the guy we got in the first was coveted not just by our staff but multiple other teams. So far, so good, not great, but good.

Curious if the board agrees with this sentiment considering Horst seemed to be unanimously labeled a "puppet" immediately after the hire. The irrational amount Jason Kidd hate will significantly impact how folks view Jon Horst, the GM. If Wilson and Brown look good early on, Horst will get the credit. If not, Kidd will get the blame. I'm guessing reactions will be similar with trades and free agent acquisitions going forward.

[coolhandluke121]

Here's my thing: if Giannis leaves in 4 years, does anybody expect this team to recover with this ownership group and the way they've managed the team thus far? We'll be right back where we started with Kohl.

Even Kohl was able to keep a good situation going for a few years before he started slowly destroying the team. These guys starting sabotaging a good thing before it even had a chance to start.

[Swan Vox]

All the other extra stuff in the report sounds like typical Gery WOEFUL BS. It's odd because I thought everyone wanted the Bucks to clean house the minute LED bought the team? They start to clean house and everyone loses their minds.

Cleaning the house is a two step process. Step one is taking out the junk. Step two is getting the right person to fix things back up. We still don't have that veteran NBA executive in place who is successful, can set a vision and has real power. We've got the committee of helpers all intermixed with multiple owners as we did under Herb.

Everyone was excited when we thought we were cleaning house to bring in a spurs-like FO structure (and maybe even folks from the spurs themselves).

People are justifiably skeptical when what we actually are getting is Jason Kidd, owner infighting & more nebulous management structure, some of which it seems has very little experience.