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Marquette Hoops 2019/20

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#181 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:44 pm

Yea my comment was simply on that I was assuming MU was basically out of the tournament. The first step of winning the tourney is actually being in it. As pointed out, turns out MU is still on the bubble. With how bad they've finished I was assuming they were as good as out barring a run in the conf tourney.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#182 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:52 pm

Homer insists they will make the tourney, and Wojo is 100% safe.

Feels like homerism on the first part, on the second part, he is very plugged in. That said, we'll have to see how their season concludes.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#183 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:54 pm

Their resume is currently that of an 8 or maybe 9 seed. Have not been many bid thieves so far (plenty of time to go). Losing to Seton Hall may drop them towards the 10 line but a lot would have to go wrong to miss it IMO.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#184 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:18 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:Homer insists they will make the tourney, and Wojo is 100% safe.

Feels like homerism on the first part, on the second part, he is very plugged in. That said, we'll have to see how their season concludes.


The problem is that they just (stupidly) signed him to a two-year extension like 10 months ago. They're not going to want to eat that contract if they can avoid it.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#185 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:34 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:Homer insists they will make the tourney, and Wojo is 100% safe.

Feels like homerism on the first part, on the second part, he is very plugged in. That said, we'll have to see how their season concludes.


The problem is that they just (stupidly) signed him to a two-year extension like 10 months ago. They're not going to want to eat that contract if they can avoid it.


I jump on and respond to you guys whether it was about Gard or Woj getting their 4th year added or Chryst getting an extension but this is standard operating procedure in college sports.

It is much better to sign a coach through 4 or maybe 5 years so that they can recruit with confidence than it is to "hold their feet to the fire" and not extend them.

And given that this is standard operating procedure, it is generally something that boosters are willing to buy out, especially if it's for a coach with minimal leverage like Woj had last year given that I don't think it's going to be a tough pill to swallow. Maybe Chris Beard or some other rising coach could get a massive buyout that is hard to eat, but the rest of them are just the cost of business. Usually the cost is quite low by booster terms.

There's a give and a take as maybe it buys the coach one more year (generally not) but also allows them to do their job well than instead have it impossible to recruit as prospective players would say, "your own school isn't even confident that you'll be here when I'm supposed to be done."

Marquette's is harder to find as a public university, but Richard Pitino, in a similar stratosphere of coaches, got basically the same 2-year extension last year. The buyout is $2 million. That's not much for a booster to deal with.

I have said this on threads about all 3 coaches, maybe you guys will read and reply once.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#186 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:10 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:Homer insists they will make the tourney, and Wojo is 100% safe.

Feels like homerism on the first part, on the second part, he is very plugged in. That said, we'll have to see how their season concludes.


The problem is that they just (stupidly) signed him to a two-year extension like 10 months ago. They're not going to want to eat that contract if they can avoid it.


I jump on and respond to you guys whether it was about Gard or Woj getting their 4th year added or Chryst getting an extension but this is standard operating procedure in college sports.

It is much better to sign a coach through 4 or maybe 5 years so that they can recruit with confidence than it is to "hold their feet to the fire" and not extend them.

And given that this is standard operating procedure, it is generally something that boosters are willing to buy out, especially if it's for a coach with minimal leverage like Woj had last year given that I don't think it's going to be a tough pill to swallow. Maybe Chris Beard or some other rising coach could get a massive buyout that is hard to eat, but the rest of them are just the cost of business. Usually the cost is quite low by booster terms.

There's a give and a take as maybe it buys the coach one more year (generally not) but also allows them to do their job well than instead have it impossible to recruit as prospective players would say, "your own school isn't even confident that you'll be here when I'm supposed to be done."

Marquette's is harder to find as a public university, but Richard Pitino, in a similar stratosphere of coaches, got basically the same 2-year extension last year. The buyout is $2 million. That's not much for a booster to deal with.

I have said this on threads about all 3 coaches, maybe you guys will read and reply once.


I know that's your take, Kerb. But dude you need to understand that no one owes you a reply. Just because you say something is a "normal" practice doesn't mean it's the right one. And in this case, it's adding two years to a contract for a coach that hadn't exactly earned it. Your posts on this subject are not going to stop other people from offering different opinions on it - whether it's Gard or MU or Chryst or anything else.

You just need to step back and realize that these conversations aren't about you, and perhaps you can consider not responding to every single post you disagree with - especially from me.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#187 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:15 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
The problem is that they just (stupidly) signed him to a two-year extension like 10 months ago. They're not going to want to eat that contract if they can avoid it.


I jump on and respond to you guys whether it was about Gard or Woj getting their 4th year added or Chryst getting an extension but this is standard operating procedure in college sports.

It is much better to sign a coach through 4 or maybe 5 years so that they can recruit with confidence than it is to "hold their feet to the fire" and not extend them.

And given that this is standard operating procedure, it is generally something that boosters are willing to buy out, especially if it's for a coach with minimal leverage like Woj had last year given that I don't think it's going to be a tough pill to swallow. Maybe Chris Beard or some other rising coach could get a massive buyout that is hard to eat, but the rest of them are just the cost of business. Usually the cost is quite low by booster terms.

There's a give and a take as maybe it buys the coach one more year (generally not) but also allows them to do their job well than instead have it impossible to recruit as prospective players would say, "your own school isn't even confident that you'll be here when I'm supposed to be done."

Marquette's is harder to find as a public university, but Richard Pitino, in a similar stratosphere of coaches, got basically the same 2-year extension last year. The buyout is $2 million. That's not much for a booster to deal with.

I have said this on threads about all 3 coaches, maybe you guys will read and reply once.


I know that's your take, Kerb. But dude you need to understand that no one owes you a reply. Just because you say something is a "normal" practice doesn't mean it's the right one. And in this case, it's adding two years to a contract for a coach that hadn't exactly earned it. Your posts on this subject are not going to stop other people from offering different opinions on it - whether it's Gard or MU or Chryst or anything else.

You just need to step back and realize that these conversations aren't about you, and perhaps you can consider not responding to every single post you disagree with - especially from me.


But I mean are you guys processing that maybe this isn't "stupid" and is actually something that is normal and basically has to happen? In rare cases, coaches get extended to 3 years. Generally it's 4-5 years out.

This isn't some pet theory that I have, it's basically a widely accepted idea across college sports.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#188 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:20 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
I jump on and respond to you guys whether it was about Gard or Woj getting their 4th year added or Chryst getting an extension but this is standard operating procedure in college sports.

It is much better to sign a coach through 4 or maybe 5 years so that they can recruit with confidence than it is to "hold their feet to the fire" and not extend them.

And given that this is standard operating procedure, it is generally something that boosters are willing to buy out, especially if it's for a coach with minimal leverage like Woj had last year given that I don't think it's going to be a tough pill to swallow. Maybe Chris Beard or some other rising coach could get a massive buyout that is hard to eat, but the rest of them are just the cost of business. Usually the cost is quite low by booster terms.

There's a give and a take as maybe it buys the coach one more year (generally not) but also allows them to do their job well than instead have it impossible to recruit as prospective players would say, "your own school isn't even confident that you'll be here when I'm supposed to be done."

Marquette's is harder to find as a public university, but Richard Pitino, in a similar stratosphere of coaches, got basically the same 2-year extension last year. The buyout is $2 million. That's not much for a booster to deal with.

I have said this on threads about all 3 coaches, maybe you guys will read and reply once.


I know that's your take, Kerb. But dude you need to understand that no one owes you a reply. Just because you say something is a "normal" practice doesn't mean it's the right one. And in this case, it's adding two years to a contract for a coach that hadn't exactly earned it. Your posts on this subject are not going to stop other people from offering different opinions on it - whether it's Gard or MU or Chryst or anything else.

You just need to step back and realize that these conversations aren't about you, and perhaps you can consider not responding to every single post you disagree with - especially from me.


But I mean are you guys processing that maybe this isn't "stupid" and is actually something that is normal and basically has to happen? In rare cases, coaches get extended to 3 years. Generally it's 4-5 years out.

This isn't some pet theory that I have, it's basically a widely accepted idea across college sports.


I understand that, Kerb. I even get the logic behind it. But I don't think it is the right thing to do in every situation - especially with a coach that I had serious questions about that just had two of his big recruits decide to transfer on him on the cusp of what was supposed to be a great year for MU. And it's not like Wojo only had a year left on his deal - he was under contract for three more seasons.

You repeating a take over and over again isn't going to change my mind, and you need to respect that.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#189 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:22 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
I know that's your take, Kerb. But dude you need to understand that no one owes you a reply. Just because you say something is a "normal" practice doesn't mean it's the right one. And in this case, it's adding two years to a contract for a coach that hadn't exactly earned it. Your posts on this subject are not going to stop other people from offering different opinions on it - whether it's Gard or MU or Chryst or anything else.

You just need to step back and realize that these conversations aren't about you, and perhaps you can consider not responding to every single post you disagree with - especially from me.


But I mean are you guys processing that maybe this isn't "stupid" and is actually something that is normal and basically has to happen? In rare cases, coaches get extended to 3 years. Generally it's 4-5 years out.

This isn't some pet theory that I have, it's basically a widely accepted idea across college sports.


I understand that, Kerb. I even get the logic behind it. But I don't think it is the right thing to do in every situation - especially with a coach that I had serious questions about that just had two of his big recruits decide to transfer on him on the cusp of what was supposed to be a great year for MU. And it's not like Wojo only had a year left on his deal - he was under contract for three more seasons.

You repeating a take over and over again isn't going to change my mind, and you need to respect that.


Yeah but you literally said the same thing about Gard and Chryst getting their extensions so...

Like 95% of the coaches on here have deals through 2023 or later. Only a handful that are older like Coach K or Leonard Hamilton or just weird situations like Penny Hardaway (will be renegotiated after the season) do not.

https://watchstadium.com/college-basketball-coaching-salary-and-buyout-database-for-2019-20-season-10-24-2019/
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#190 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:28 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
But I mean are you guys processing that maybe this isn't "stupid" and is actually something that is normal and basically has to happen? In rare cases, coaches get extended to 3 years. Generally it's 4-5 years out.

This isn't some pet theory that I have, it's basically a widely accepted idea across college sports.


I understand that, Kerb. I even get the logic behind it. But I don't think it is the right thing to do in every situation - especially with a coach that I had serious questions about that just had two of his big recruits decide to transfer on him on the cusp of what was supposed to be a great year for MU. And it's not like Wojo only had a year left on his deal - he was under contract for three more seasons.

You repeating a take over and over again isn't going to change my mind, and you need to respect that.


Yeah but you literally said the same thing about Gard and Chryst getting their extensions so...


Yeah, because I don't like the practice, and I didn't think it made sense in those situations. What's hard to understand about that?
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#191 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:28 pm

At least it seems the basketball buyouts are reasonable, unlike the football ones where it seems they basically end up owing the whole contracts a lot of the time, like a guaranteed deal in NBA or MLB. Basketball also seems more reasonable on the only keeping the extensions at the 4 year window, unlike football where they hand out these ridiculous 10 year deals that end up biting them so often.

Long story, university ADs/Management have to be some of the worst contract negotiators in the world.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#192 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:36 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
I understand that, Kerb. I even get the logic behind it. But I don't think it is the right thing to do in every situation - especially with a coach that I had serious questions about that just had two of his big recruits decide to transfer on him on the cusp of what was supposed to be a great year for MU. And it's not like Wojo only had a year left on his deal - he was under contract for three more seasons.

You repeating a take over and over again isn't going to change my mind, and you need to respect that.


Yeah but you literally said the same thing about Gard and Chryst getting their extensions so...


Yeah, because I don't like the practice. What's hard to understand about that?


I get that in principle, if most schools did not do it, it would make sense. Woj's trajectory does not necessarily deserve one.

But every school does it so you have to. And built into that is the idea that big time schools will just pay the buyout.

If most schools only had 1 and 2 year contracts, I would step in as AD and always keep my coach at 4 or 5. Times are slightly changing in college sports where guys are less likely to finish 4 years at a school, but I would win in recruiting by promising to recruits that it's likely I am there. Even if it is secretly known I can get fired, it's still better than the 1-2 year deal where the coach can easily bolt.

There is also some give/take. Yes, I know things looked bad with Woj and he hasn't gotten them to look better.

But let's take the other guys that you didn't like, Gard and Chryst. Both had stellar seasons. If instead of signing them to likely "not that guaranteed" seasons 4 years down the road, you kept their deals at 2 years...now the coach has a bunch of leverage. We know Gard and Chryst to be "Wisconsin for life" guys but for your next contract extension, instead of having them at $2.5 million (and not very guaranteed if fired) for 2023 and 2024, they can hold you over the fire for $5 million/year with guarantees.

For every time a booster has to dump $5 million to chop a coach, a different school saves $5-10 million by having their coach locked in at a lower number (like Gard and Chryst are).
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#193 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:39 pm

DingleJerry wrote:At least it seems the basketball buyouts are reasonable, unlike the football ones where it seems they basically end up owing the whole contracts a lot of the time, like a guaranteed deal in NBA or MLB. Basketball also seems more reasonable on the only keeping the extensions at the 4 year window, unlike football where they hand out these ridiculous 10 year deals that end up biting them so often.

Long story, university ADs/Management have to be some of the worst contract negotiators in the world.


The boosters are insane, though. Boosters paid an obscene buyout for Kevin Sumlin and inked Jimbo to the massive deal. Is it actually working out for them? No...but that's due more to getting buried in the SEC than to having bad coaches and cutting costs because of a bad contract.

Charlie Weis' deal was the one everyone talks about as terrible. After Weis was fired and everyone laughed at how much they were paying Weis $19 million to go away, they had 2 good seasons under Kelly and in the 3rd season, they literally made the national championship game.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#194 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:44 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
Yeah but you literally said the same thing about Gard and Chryst getting their extensions so...


Yeah, because I don't like the practice. What's hard to understand about that?


I get that in principle, if most schools did not do it, it would make sense. Woj's trajectory does not necessarily deserve one.

But every school does it so you have to. And built into that is the idea that big time schools will just pay the buyout.

If most schools only had 1 and 2 year contracts, I would step in as AD and always keep my coach at 4 or 5. Times are slightly changing in college sports where guys are less likely to finish 4 years at a school, but I would win in recruiting by promising to recruits that it's likely I am there. Even if it is secretly known I can get fired, it's still better than the 1-2 year deal where the coach can easily bolt.

There is also some give/take. Yes, I know things looked bad with Woj and he hasn't gotten them to look better.

But let's take the other guys that you didn't like, Gard and Chryst. Both had stellar seasons. If instead of signing them to likely "not that guaranteed" seasons 4 years down the road, you kept their deals at 2 years...now the coach has a bunch of leverage. We know Gard and Chryst to be "Wisconsin for life" guys but for your next contract extension, instead of having them at $2.5 million (and not very guaranteed if fired) for 2023 and 2024, they can hold you over the fire for $5 million/year with guarantees.


To be clear, I never "didn't like" Chryst - I wasn't his biggest fan, but I was fine with him as our HC. I just didn't get the notion of giving him an extra year when there was a zero percent chance he would ever leave Wisconsin. I was much less sold on Gard, as you know.

But your point is well-taken on the consequences if the team plays well in that it could cost you later. But I also think that college sports have shown us that contracts mean little if those guys want to bolt, so you'll likely have to renegotiate contracts with pay bumps later if those guys agitate to leave. So either way, those guys will get new contracts with pay bumps if things go well, and with guys like Chryst and Gard who are Badgers through-and-through, I'd be inclined to be more conservative about extending them on the front end and paying more on the back-end when they earn it because I'd never feel seriously concerned that they'd be leaving.

The flip side is what happens if things don't go well - like Wojo. I don't know what is buyout is, but if it increased with this last extension, that's not good.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#195 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:47 pm

CFB is an endless string of bad contracts and extensions over and over, tons of examples besides Weis's deals, not just ND one. These guys will be signed for 6-7 years and they tack on another 4 years. It's funny to watch and think why did you think you had to give that deal. It's not like the guy still can't leave if he wants.

In regards to Gard, I've said similar when this looked like such a bad year. Don't tack on the extra year like normal, and if you do need to for PR purposes just don't have it add to the buyout. That way you can say he was extended but it doesn't affect any decisions since no additional money was guaranteed.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#196 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:48 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Yeah, because I don't like the practice. What's hard to understand about that?


I get that in principle, if most schools did not do it, it would make sense. Woj's trajectory does not necessarily deserve one.

But every school does it so you have to. And built into that is the idea that big time schools will just pay the buyout.

If most schools only had 1 and 2 year contracts, I would step in as AD and always keep my coach at 4 or 5. Times are slightly changing in college sports where guys are less likely to finish 4 years at a school, but I would win in recruiting by promising to recruits that it's likely I am there. Even if it is secretly known I can get fired, it's still better than the 1-2 year deal where the coach can easily bolt.

There is also some give/take. Yes, I know things looked bad with Woj and he hasn't gotten them to look better.

But let's take the other guys that you didn't like, Gard and Chryst. Both had stellar seasons. If instead of signing them to likely "not that guaranteed" seasons 4 years down the road, you kept their deals at 2 years...now the coach has a bunch of leverage. We know Gard and Chryst to be "Wisconsin for life" guys but for your next contract extension, instead of having them at $2.5 million (and not very guaranteed if fired) for 2023 and 2024, they can hold you over the fire for $5 million/year with guarantees.


To be clear, I never "didn't like" Chryst - I wasn't his biggest fan, but I was fine with him as our HC. I just didn't get the notion of giving him an extra year when there was a zero percent chance he would ever leave Wisconsin. I was much less sold on Gard, as you know.

But your point is well-taken on the consequences if the team plays well in that it could cost you later. But I also think that college sports have shown us that contracts mean little if those guys want to bolt, so you'll likely have to renegotiate contracts with pay bumps later if those guys agitate to leave. So either way, those guys will get new contracts with pay bumps if things go well, and with guys like Chryst and Gard who are Badgers through-and-through, I'd be inclined to be more conservative about extending them on the front end and paying more on the back-end when they earn it.

The flip side is what happens if things don't go well - like Wojo. I don't know what is buyout is, but if it increased with this last extension, that's not good.


To "earn it" a coach for Wisconsin, a very "4 years of a player and stability school" wouldn't it make sense to have a 4+ year contract, though? Barry Alvarez and the UW decision makers also don't float on the whims of little blips of records, either. The much discussed 2017-2018 season of Wisconsin basketball was seen more on the side of, "good coach, tough circumstances." Ditto on 2018 Badger football. They can see the forest through the trees unlike fans who want to fire at the first sign of struggle, even if there are good reasons for the struggle.

Also, most contracts have clauses where they have to concede money to bolt or that the new school must pay the old school if the coach leaves. So, yeah, if Chryst or Gard really left in this example, UW would get some cash back.

Buzz had to pay Marquette back when he left. So the schools make up some money there to put in the coffers for when they decide to fire a guy and eat a few million.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#197 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:53 pm

DingleJerry wrote:CFB is an endless string of bad contracts and extensions over and over, tons of examples besides Weis's deals, not just ND one. These guys will be signed for 6-7 years and they tack on another 4 years. It's funny to watch and think why did you think you had to give that deal. It's not like the guy still can't leave if he wants.

In regards to Gard, I've said similar when this looked like such a bad year. Don't tack on the extra year like normal, and if you do need to for PR purposes just don't have it add to the buyout. That way you can say he was extended but it doesn't affect any decisions since no additional money was guaranteed.


Most of the schools doing this have the cash.

The Red Sox were paying Pablo Sandoval, Rusney Castillo a combined $35 million/year as well as a useless Dustin Pedroia $15 million among other washed up players.

Do you think they cared when they hoisted the trophy? This is the cost of business. We can get into a whole different discussion about the Red Sox resetting their luxury tax number this year but generally, these teams and schools know that they're risking future sunk costs...but they don't care because they have much more cash than necessary (and in the NCAA's case, they aren't paying their players).

Both of you guys are talking about this grand idea...why isn't it done in practice? I realize that a lot of big-time, high-profile people can be dumber than we think, but it appears that, through example, this is what needs to happen with coaches. The moment a high profile school says, "eh, let's not sign him to this extension because I bet we can negotiate it down and start our own trend," they suddenly have a tough time hiring coaches.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#198 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:02 pm

Long story, just because something has historically be done or is typically done doesn't mean that it should continue to be done. Otherwise nothing would ever change. And just because they have the money from boosters etc doesn't mean they should just give it away to coaches.

UW does a good job compared to others of having a backbone on this stuff. If others did as well it shouldn't be there. When a coach who's currently signed to a 7 year deal comes and says I need 4 more years tacked onto this. Just say No unless they're Saban/Dabo/Coach K etc type level. It's really that simple. There is nothing to be gained from tacking on those years no matter what his agent tells you. If you do get put in a spot when the guy has an offer in hand from another school well then I get how it can happen. I'd be more talking about the Iowa type situations or the ND ones you'd said where they have 1 good year and you give them a lifer contract.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#199 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:04 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
I get that in principle, if most schools did not do it, it would make sense. Woj's trajectory does not necessarily deserve one.

But every school does it so you have to. And built into that is the idea that big time schools will just pay the buyout.

If most schools only had 1 and 2 year contracts, I would step in as AD and always keep my coach at 4 or 5. Times are slightly changing in college sports where guys are less likely to finish 4 years at a school, but I would win in recruiting by promising to recruits that it's likely I am there. Even if it is secretly known I can get fired, it's still better than the 1-2 year deal where the coach can easily bolt.

There is also some give/take. Yes, I know things looked bad with Woj and he hasn't gotten them to look better.

But let's take the other guys that you didn't like, Gard and Chryst. Both had stellar seasons. If instead of signing them to likely "not that guaranteed" seasons 4 years down the road, you kept their deals at 2 years...now the coach has a bunch of leverage. We know Gard and Chryst to be "Wisconsin for life" guys but for your next contract extension, instead of having them at $2.5 million (and not very guaranteed if fired) for 2023 and 2024, they can hold you over the fire for $5 million/year with guarantees.


To be clear, I never "didn't like" Chryst - I wasn't his biggest fan, but I was fine with him as our HC. I just didn't get the notion of giving him an extra year when there was a zero percent chance he would ever leave Wisconsin. I was much less sold on Gard, as you know.

But your point is well-taken on the consequences if the team plays well in that it could cost you later. But I also think that college sports have shown us that contracts mean little if those guys want to bolt, so you'll likely have to renegotiate contracts with pay bumps later if those guys agitate to leave. So either way, those guys will get new contracts with pay bumps if things go well, and with guys like Chryst and Gard who are Badgers through-and-through, I'd be inclined to be more conservative about extending them on the front end and paying more on the back-end when they earn it.

The flip side is what happens if things don't go well - like Wojo. I don't know what is buyout is, but if it increased with this last extension, that's not good.


To "earn it" a coach for Wisconsin, a very "4 years of a player and stability school" wouldn't it make sense to have a 4+ year contract, though? Barry Alvarez and the UW decision makers also don't float on the whims of little blips of records, either. The much discussed 2017-2018 season of Wisconsin basketball was seen more on the side of, "good coach, tough circumstances." Ditto on 2018 Badger football. They can see the forest through the trees unlike fans who want to fire at the first sign of struggle, even if there are good reasons for the struggle.

Also, most contracts have clauses where they have to concede money to bolt or that the new school must pay the old school if the coach leaves. So, yeah, if Chryst or Gard really left in this example, UW would get some cash back.

Buzz had to pay Marquette back when he left. So the schools make up some money there to put in the coffers for when they decide to fire a guy and eat a few million.


Let's put aside the UW examples for a moment because this is a Marquette thread.

Let's look at a guy like Wojo. You give him a two year extension when there was no sign he was leaving, no way he had sold everyone on him as a long-term coach here. What do you get in return for that contract?

What's the value? Your counter is "everyone does it." But that is not the end of the analysis - you have to ask what are the consequences if Marquette doesn't do it in this situation?

Is another school going to swoop in and grab Wojo? Probably not - and even if that happens, you're probably not complaining.
Is Wojo going to agitate to the press about it? Probably not - he knows that wouldn't have been a good look for him and that would hurt him with recruiting.
Are you going to lose recruits? Maybe. The best ones MU goes after aren't probably planning to be there for four years, though, and besides, kids aren't naive enough to believe that college coaches don't get fired/leave/resign. But yes, perhaps it tips the balance for a recruit.

The best case scenario is what you described - you sign him at a cheaper rate and that convinces recruits to come and you win big. I don't think the cheaper rate is even that relevant in that situation, though, because if Wojo turns MU into a top 10-15 program, bigger programs will be circling and you'll have to renegotiate his deal to keep him, anyway. So either you pay him on the front end or you pay him on the back end.

So, I think it basically comes down to you're giving him two more years for the possibility that it could help him with recruiting.

The worst case scenario is that you end up paying a guy millions to buy him out in two years and are having to rebuild the program anyway.

Is that millions+ gamble worth it for the possibility it could tip the balance for a four year guy?
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Kerb Hohl
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#200 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:08 pm

DingleJerry wrote:Long story, just because something has historically be done or is typically done doesn't mean that it should continue to be done. Otherwise nothing would ever change. And just because they have the money from boosters etc doesn't mean they should just give it away to coaches.

UW does a good job compared to others of having a backbone on this stuff. If others did as well it shouldn't be there. When a coach who's currently signed to a 7 year deal comes and says I need 4 more years tacked onto this. Just say No unless they're Saban/Dabo/Coach K etc type level. It's really that simple. There is nothing to be gained from tacking on those years no matter what his agent tells you. If you do get put in a spot when the guy has an offer in hand from another school well then I get how it can happen. I'd be more talking about the Iowa type situations or the ND ones you'd said where they have 1 good year and you give them a lifer contract.


Ferentz is a good coach. Iowa football is a rabid fanbase, fills their stadium, probably gets a lot of booster/donor money. So even if he fell off a cliff in performance (they haven't), they will pay based on all of his previous success.

It's an arms race and it's easier to say, "eh, don't participate" than actually do it. Rutgers is the extreme example but there are plenty of middling schools that don't.

Wisconsin, while they are still somewhat of a big boy in spending and still do 4-5 year deals, is kinda the exception to the rule. You're right that they somewhat operate in the space of not going insane in coach spending and just live off of stability. But only a handful of schools can actually succeed at that. It also takes patience and likely having lowered expectations (though Wisconsin likely would never win it all even if they did have money to throw at Saban).

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