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Marquette Hoops 2019/20

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#201 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:14 pm

humanrefutation wrote:Is another school going to swoop in and grab Wojo? Probably not - and even if that happens, you're probably not complaining.
Is Wojo going to agitate to the press about it? Probably not - he knows that wouldn't have been a good look for him and that would hurt him with recruiting.
Are you going to lose recruits? Maybe. The best ones MU goes after aren't probably planning to be there for four years, though, and besides, kids aren't naive enough to believe that college coaches don't get fired/leave/resign. But yes, perhaps it tips the balance for a recruit.


I'll bring Wisconsin back in because it's relevant in this particular case.

Imagine if Gard had this season and we didn't have great recruiting classes coming in after? We're stuck in a middle ground.

Woj may be proving he's not worth keeping but he just scored more great recruits. That's not a bad thing...even if it is leftovers that you try to convince to stay for the next guy. Stability is huge in college sports.

humanrefutation wrote:The best case scenario is what you described - you sign him at a cheaper rate and that convinces recruits to come and you win big. I don't think the cheaper rate is even that relevant in that situation, though, because if Wojo turns MU into a top 10-15 program, bigger programs will be circling and you'll have to renegotiate his deal to keep him, anyway. So either you pay him on the front end or you pay him on the back end.


This is still a benefit. Generally the other school will have to pay to pull the coach away. Most times, it's a large amount. So now you have both the other school and the coach still at a bit of a leverage point. It's not great, but it's something.

And again I'll go to some professional sport discussions. Namely baseball because, like NCAA coaching, there is no salary cap.

For every Jacoby Ellsbury and Giancarlo Stanton (now looking bad) there are 2-3 great mega-contracts that they have. If you have the cash to spend and are allowed to spend it, you can't be afraid to dip your toe in the water because you're worried about sunk costs. Firing Woj will likely be a drop in the bucket for a big-time basketball program like Marquette.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#202 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:14 pm

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DingleJerry wrote:Long story, just because something has historically be done or is typically done doesn't mean that it should continue to be done. Otherwise nothing would ever change. And just because they have the money from boosters etc doesn't mean they should just give it away to coaches.

UW does a good job compared to others of having a backbone on this stuff. If others did as well it shouldn't be there. When a coach who's currently signed to a 7 year deal comes and says I need 4 more years tacked onto this. Just say No unless they're Saban/Dabo/Coach K etc type level. It's really that simple. There is nothing to be gained from tacking on those years no matter what his agent tells you. If you do get put in a spot when the guy has an offer in hand from another school well then I get how it can happen. I'd be more talking about the Iowa type situations or the ND ones you'd said where they have 1 good year and you give them a lifer contract.


Ferentz is a good coach. Iowa football is a rabid fanbase, fills their stadium, probably gets a lot of booster/donor money. So even if he fell off a cliff in performance (they haven't), they will pay based on all of his previous success.

It's an arms race and it's easier to say, "eh, don't participate" than actually do it. Rutgers is the extreme example but there are plenty of middling schools that don't.

Wisconsin, while they are still somewhat of a big boy in spending and still do 4-5 year deals, is kinda the exception to the rule. You're right that they somewhat operate in the space of not going insane in coach spending and just live off of stability. But only a handful of schools can actually succeed at that. It also takes patience and likely having lowered expectations (though Wisconsin likely would never win it all even if they did have money to throw at Saban).


That's just it though. The agents have created a situation that you have to do it to keep up with the others. The reality is none of it is needed, they're being snowballed by the agents.

Ferentz also isn't going anywhere. Why does he need a 10 year deal. They had their dip years several years back and everyone wanted him gone but they couldn't because he was owed for 10 years and the huge buyout. Then a couple more years went by, inching them close to the end. Then he had 1 more good year and they went and tacked on several more years. It makes no sense.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#203 » by Kerb Hohl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:17 pm

DingleJerry wrote:
Spoiler:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
DingleJerry wrote:Long story, just because something has historically be done or is typically done doesn't mean that it should continue to be done. Otherwise nothing would ever change. And just because they have the money from boosters etc doesn't mean they should just give it away to coaches.

UW does a good job compared to others of having a backbone on this stuff. If others did as well it shouldn't be there. When a coach who's currently signed to a 7 year deal comes and says I need 4 more years tacked onto this. Just say No unless they're Saban/Dabo/Coach K etc type level. It's really that simple. There is nothing to be gained from tacking on those years no matter what his agent tells you. If you do get put in a spot when the guy has an offer in hand from another school well then I get how it can happen. I'd be more talking about the Iowa type situations or the ND ones you'd said where they have 1 good year and you give them a lifer contract.


Ferentz is a good coach. Iowa football is a rabid fanbase, fills their stadium, probably gets a lot of booster/donor money. So even if he fell off a cliff in performance (they haven't), they will pay based on all of his previous success.

It's an arms race and it's easier to say, "eh, don't participate" than actually do it. Rutgers is the extreme example but there are plenty of middling schools that don't.

Wisconsin, while they are still somewhat of a big boy in spending and still do 4-5 year deals, is kinda the exception to the rule. You're right that they somewhat operate in the space of not going insane in coach spending and just live off of stability. But only a handful of schools can actually succeed at that. It also takes patience and likely having lowered expectations (though Wisconsin likely would never win it all even if they did have money to throw at Saban).


That's just it though. The agents have created a situation that you have to do it to keep up with the others. The reality is none of it is needed, they're being snowballed by the agents.

Ferentz also isn't going anywhere. Why does he need a 10 year deal. They had their dip years several years back and everyone wanted him gone but they couldn't because he was owed for 10 years and the huge buyout. Then a couple more years went by, inching them close to the end. Then he had 1 more good year and they went and tacked on several more years. It makes no sense.


I mean, I'm assuming you don't work in college athletics, right? I'm just going off of what I see in the arm's race. Seems like these gambles are necessary or they wouldn't be happening. And in a handful of cases, they aren't happening...we just don't notice because the schools that aren't doing this are largely irrelevant.

Some "lifetime coaches" do leave. Sometimes it's for the better for the school but it wouldn't have been impossible for Ferentz to take the Lions job or something.

Rutgers finally is getting respect because they just signed a coach that was negotiating against almost no one to an 8-year deal with a bunch of promises for assistant coaches. If they didn't get this done, Rutgers is still a laughingstock.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#204 » by humanrefutation » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:30 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:Is another school going to swoop in and grab Wojo? Probably not - and even if that happens, you're probably not complaining.
Is Wojo going to agitate to the press about it? Probably not - he knows that wouldn't have been a good look for him and that would hurt him with recruiting.
Are you going to lose recruits? Maybe. The best ones MU goes after aren't probably planning to be there for four years, though, and besides, kids aren't naive enough to believe that college coaches don't get fired/leave/resign. But yes, perhaps it tips the balance for a recruit.


I'll bring Wisconsin back in because it's relevant in this particular case.

Imagine if Gard had this season and we didn't have great recruiting classes coming in after? We're stuck in a middle ground.


Your argument with Gard is more credible simply because Wisconsin isn't an NBA factory and they rely heavily on those four year guys, but I don't think the pull of that extra year of Gard's deal is a significant motivating factor as to why his recruits have chosen to go to UW.

Woj may be proving he's not worth keeping but he just scored more great recruits. That's not a bad thing...even if it is leftovers that you try to convince to stay for the next guy. Stability is huge in college sports.


If those guys were tethered to Wojo as the reason they went to MU, there's a good chance they'll want to transfer if Wojo gets canned anyway. I think that argument actually hurts the rationale for extending Wojo, because it demonstrates that there are other major factors driving a recruit to Marquette over whether Wojo has a fourth and fifth year tacked onto his deal.

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:The best case scenario is what you described - you sign him at a cheaper rate and that convinces recruits to come and you win big. I don't think the cheaper rate is even that relevant in that situation, though, because if Wojo turns MU into a top 10-15 program, bigger programs will be circling and you'll have to renegotiate his deal to keep him, anyway. So either you pay him on the front end or you pay him on the back end.


This is still a benefit. Generally the other school will have to pay to pull the coach away. Most times, it's a large amount. So now you have both the other school and the coach still at a bit of a leverage point. It's not great, but it's something.


I think that is going to be a problem in either circumstance. You've pointed out already that big time programs are willing to pay big buyouts if they're sold on hiring a particular guy. So even if you pay him on the front end, it's still likely not going to stop you from having to renegotiate his deal on the back end to keep him there.

Again, your argument basically boils down to millions+ in risk for the possibility it could help you with a recruit. You believe that's the "cost of doing business," so-to-speak. I'm saying that I think it isn't rational in all cases, and MU is one of them.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#205 » by DingleJerry » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:30 pm

It's a made up arms race by agents. "I need this stability so you need to tack on this and this and this". Call their bluff. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

If someone has an offer is getting calls, sure your hand is forced. If you're poaching someone like say the Bielema to Arkansas, yea you have to give a big deal so we don't match etc. More too Bielema, you had to give him a big deal to get him, sure fine. Then after 2 years into a 6 year deal and doing awful you have to tack on 2 more years and give him a raise and increase his buyout? Do the CBB type thing to keep above 4 years, sure ok, but don't' have it add to the buyout. If he leaves, so be it.

These agents just have to be laughing all the way to the bank on this stuff as these ADs are the worst poker players on earth.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#206 » by DingleJerry » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:32 pm

MU is listed as 2.5 dog to Seton Hall tomorrow. This one screams SH to me (unless they have a guy out I'm unaware of). But also one of those that seems so logical to bet that way (with how poor MU has been doing) and then MU just comes out and wins easily.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#207 » by lessthannick11 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:37 pm

Plus now that Howard didn't win Big East POY, he will be out to prove something. Could be good or could be ugly.

I don't think he should have won, but it should have been someone other than Powell.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#208 » by Mags FTW » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:23 pm

DingleJerry wrote:MU is listed as 2.5 dog to Seton Hall tomorrow. This one screams SH to me (unless they have a guy out I'm unaware of). But also one of those that seems so logical to bet that way (with how poor MU has been doing) and then MU just comes out and wins easily.

It's a tough call. MU was able to close it to 5 with about 10 minutes left in their last game, and that was with SH shooting 50% from 3 and 53% overall. So there's that.

But it was also at MU, on Senior Day with an amped crowd.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#209 » by MickeyDavis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:31 pm

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#210 » by TroyD92 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:37 pm

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Wow. This could be a disastrous decision. Wonder if the local state government Will step in
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Kidd would have curb stomped him.

Maybe if his name was Denise instead of Dennis.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#211 » by midranger » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:41 pm

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#212 » by Kerb Hohl » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:02 pm

They're done. My U150 bet pushes when it was looking slightly bad at halftime.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#213 » by MickeyDavis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:27 pm

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#214 » by midranger » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:41 pm

Why would they start it and then call it 20 minutes in? Craziness.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#215 » by LittleRooster » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:56 am

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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#216 » by chonestown » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:37 pm

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Wow. UW pushed hard for Carton. I do enjoying clowning on Woj, but the dude does bring in talent.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#217 » by Kerb Hohl » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:49 pm

I don't think UW pushed hard for Carton this time around. That's not a backhanded complement, they sure as hell would've taken him I'm sure. Just a different situation in that Carton may have immediately been the best player in their backcourt (maybe?) but there is a bit of a logjam of very good players in said backcourt so I'm guessing not the best match.

I wonder if Carton will get immediate eligibility. I know he had attributed mental health issues to leaving, so whether those are valid or not (it sucks we have to speculate), I'm sure that will satisfy the magic waiver gods if the free transfer rule is not passed for '20-'21.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#218 » by DingleJerry » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:31 pm

I was surprised Carton didn't end up at one of the Iowa schools. With the cited mental stuff I just figured he'd want to be close to home. Of course MU does get him much closer than OSU was though. I also didn't look into either Iowa schools G and scholarship situations.

I'd agree at this point UW probably didn't pursue much at this time as the timing doesn't work out well. I suppose if you knew he'd have to RS then you'd lose a bunch of Gs after next year and he could step in and have 3 years. It would probably cost them one of the two strong G recruits in the next two classes though. You could argue if that's worth it or not but UW usually doesn't play that game much. As said though, they were heavy on him out of HS and the first school to discover him, wonder the butterfly effect if he'd have just picked UW back then.

Good get for MU though, hopefully it works out and the kid overcomes his issues.
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#219 » by lessthannick11 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:31 pm

Carton should immediately be their best guard (assuming he's eligible) which makes the lineup work better when the other guys don't have to be the man.

Makes next year much more interesting and gives hope again
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Re: Marquette Hoops 2019/20 

Post#220 » by MickeyDavis » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:36 pm

If he doesn't get a waiver he's turning pro
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