OT: TV and Movies (with spoilers)

[MiltownHawkeye]

Spoiler:

Do you really think Tyrion wanted Bronn troubles in his life? Imagine being the one to tell him you're going back on a deal.

Spoiler:

Let's pretend for a second that it wouldn't be as easy as having Bronn thrown in a Black Cell or assassinated. Doing so requires pretending that Bronn is basically invincible rather than just one guy, but he's been established as fairly cunning and one of the best swordsman in the show so sure.

You're telling me that Bran, who is basically an omniscient god, and Tyrion, who is supposed to be one of the smartest men in Westeros, can't figure this out?

And did Bronn actually get promised a position as Master of Coin? Did that happen in his conversation with Jaime and Tyrion and I just missed it?

Spoiler:

He just got promised Highgarden.

His financial qualifications really don't matter there. His friendship with Tyrion and his access to the wealth of Highgarden are all that matter. That's actually pretty realistic, IMO.

Sure, but that totally contradicts RS' explanation.

[Bucksfan28]

Oh, we really going for the "you casual schlubs ruined the last couple seasons" thing? I mean, I wasn't the biggest fan on how the pacing of this last season played out (episode 3 should have been the last episode), but people were obviously gonna crucify the writers no matter how the show ended.

Spoiler:

Finale was.....ok. Would have been a lot better had they built up more to Jon killing Danarys, but I thought the cinematography, especially the closing shots, were beautifully done. Thought that Bran being king was a good twist, but it doesn't really fit his character arc at all. But the series has mostly been about the Stark children since the beginning, so it's fitting that they end the show with all 3 of them going their seperate ways.

You were right after that ep - everything since felt anticlimactic. I think it should have been the penultimate episode though, ending with the immediate fallout.

[th87]

I kind of resent when people say they enjoyed season 7 (in anything other than a "so bad ir's good" kind of way), because season 8 seemed to be written exclusively for them. The writers were clearly more interested in writing badass one-liners and meme material for the fan-favorite characters than telling a good story.

The fan favorites used to be the hyper-intelligent ones. LF, Varys, Tyrion. Then somewhere around season 6, the fan favorites became the mimetic badasses: Tormund, Sandor, Arya. This is because D&D can't write genuinely intelligent characters. It's another symptom of the show going from an intelligent political drama to schlocky blockbuster action.

I guess the latter is what the masses wanted and that's why they doubled down on the fanservice and plot armor for fan-favorites.

Perfectly articulated.

[th87]

Oh, we really going for the "you casual schlubs ruined the last couple seasons" thing? I mean, I wasn't the biggest fan on how the pacing of this last season played out (episode 3 should have been the last episode), but people were obviously gonna crucify the writers no matter how the show ended.

Spoiler:

Finale was.....ok. Would have been a lot better had they built up more to Jon killing Danarys, but I thought the cinematography, especially the closing shots, were beautifully done. Thought that Bran being king was a good twist, but it doesn't really fit his character arc at all. But the series has mostly been about the Stark children since the beginning, so it's fitting that they end the show with all 3 of them going their seperate ways.

You mean the truth?

[th87]

If D&D decided to listen to the people who called out Beyond the Wall for what it was (a jump the shark moment) and not the people blindly defending it then maybe Season 8 turns out differently.

Nah, this relatively new idea that writers and producers should "listen" to the fans is terrible. You can like or hate the end product, but let the actual film creators have creative control and freedom without these dumb, rabid social media campaigns demanding they change stuff. There's a difference between actual fan-service (a complaint that I felt was way overblown) and simply disagreeing with the direction they went with certain characters.

He's not saying they should've done so (they should strive for better), but it would've not been the disaster it is had they even settled for that.

[Ron Swanson]

I mean, aside from the random celebrity cameos (which honestly whatever, since they don't affect the story in any way) and maybe giving Tormund more screen time, I don't see how any of those things are "fan service".

I disagreed with a few of the character directions pretty vehemently (mostly Brienne and Sansa) but everything else pretty much ran concurrent to what the first 6 seasons were building up to (yes, Arya IS a tough assassin because that's literally what she's been training for the entire series). I don't see any evidence at all that they "listened to the casual fans". It's also kind of insulting to insinuate such for anyone who enjoyed the last two seasons. This coming from someone who was very "meh" on each of the last season/series two finales.

[ReasonablySober]

My response to those who consider fan service a derogatory term is something I've said for a month: everything was going to end up this way. Resolutions were going to happen. What you guys are bitching about isn't the big moments, just the pace. Which, hey, fine.

I personally didn't need multiple filler episodes on the Kings Road.

[ReasonablySober]

Spoiler:

Let's pretend for a second that it wouldn't be as easy as having Bronn thrown in a Black Cell or assassinated. Doing so requires pretending that Bronn is basically invincible rather than just one guy, but he's been established as fairly cunning and one of the best swordsman in the show so sure.

You're telling me that Bran, who is basically an omniscient god, and Tyrion, who is supposed to be one of the smartest men in Westeros, can't figure this out?

And did Bronn actually get promised a position as Master of Coin? Did that happen in his conversation with Jaime and Tyrion and I just missed it?

Spoiler:

He just got promised Highgarden.

His financial qualifications really don't matter there. His friendship with Tyrion and his access to the wealth of Highgarden are all that matter. That's actually pretty realistic, IMO.

Sure, but that totally contradicts RS' explanation.

Spoiler:

What's even wrong with Bronn in Highgarden? Do you not get how easy it is to predict the motivations or loyalties of someone when all they care about is money and pussy? Bronn's a good guy whose done good things, even if it's all in the interest in himself. Better the enemy you know, etc.

So screw it, let him have a House.

[th87]

My response to those who consider fan service a derogatory term is something I've said for a month: everything was going to end up this way. Resolutions were going to happen. What you guys are bitching about isn't the big moments, just the pace. Which, hey, fine.

I personally didn't need multiple filler episodes on the Kings Road.

Not about pace. It's about not abandoning internal logic carefully established for years.

[MiltownHawkeye]

Spoiler:

He just got promised Highgarden.

His financial qualifications really don't matter there. His friendship with Tyrion and his access to the wealth of Highgarden are all that matter. That's actually pretty realistic, IMO.

Sure, but that totally contradicts RS' explanation.

Spoiler:

What's even wrong with Bronn in Highgarden? Do you not get how easy it is to predict the motivations or loyalties of someone when all they care about is money and pussy? Bronn's a good guy whose done good things, even if it's all in the interest in himself. Better the enemy you know, etc.

So screw it, let him have a House.

Spoiler:

Bronn is a good guy that...accepted money to kill Tyrion and Jaime, then threatened them at gunpoint into giving him a kingdom?

Like a lot of idiotic plot threads from this season, a minor tweak would go a long way in making it less idiotic. Don't even introduce the whole plot point where Cersei puts a hit out on Jaime and Tyrion. It's inconsistent with his character. It's not about the end point (Bronn as lord of Highgarden), it's about how they got there.

[ReasonablySober]

My response to those who consider fan service a derogatory term is something I've said for a month: everything was going to end up this way. Resolutions were going to happen. What you guys are bitching about isn't the big moments, just the pace. Which, hey, fine.

I personally didn't need multiple filler episodes on the Kings Road.

Not about pace. It's about not abandoning internal logic carefully established for years.

Such as?

[th87]

My response to those who consider fan service a derogatory term is something I've said for a month: everything was going to end up this way. Resolutions were going to happen. What you guys are bitching about isn't the big moments, just the pace. Which, hey, fine.

I personally didn't need multiple filler episodes on the Kings Road.

Not about pace. It's about not abandoning internal logic carefully established for years.

Such as?

Spoiler:

Tyrion, smartest man in Westeros, devises absurd plan to maybe convince notoriously untrustworthy Cersei to join their cause (who they don't need) at ridiculous cost. But...need ice dragons.

Stannis, best strategist in Westeros, a military genius, gets entire camp obliterated by Ramsey's night ninjas. A man of duty agrees to a plan that isn't guaranteed to work at ridiculous cost. But...have to burn Shireen.

Daenerys and crew at Dragonstone don't notice Euron's fleet sailing 20 feet past them like 7 times. But...gotta have an unexpected pincer attack.

And so on.

[humanrefutation]

Not about pace. It's about not abandoning internal logic carefully established for years.

Such as?

Spoiler:

Tyrion, smartest man in Westeros, devises absurd plan to maybe convince notoriously untrustworthy Cersei to join their cause (who they don't need) at ridiculous cost. But...need ice dragons.

Stannis, best strategist in Westeros, a military genius, gets entire camp obliterated by Ramsey's night ninjas. A man of duty agrees to a plan that isn't guaranteed to work at ridiculous cost. But...have to burn Shireen.

Daenerys and crew at Dragonstone don't notice Euron's fleet sailing 20 feet past them like 7 times. But...gotta have an unexpected pincer attack.

And so on.

Spoiler:

Bran, character with magical powers of potentially enormous influence, basically accomplishes nothing after he reaches the 3ER and somehow ends up as King?

Dany, a woman who spends years talking about mercy and justice and fairness, decides to nuke a city and slaughter millions.

[humanrefutation]

My response to those who consider fan service a derogatory term is something I've said for a month: everything was going to end up this way. Resolutions were going to happen. What you guys are bitching about isn't the big moments, just the pace. Which, hey, fine.

I personally didn't need multiple filler episodes on the Kings Road.

It's not just about pace. It's about character development.

[MiltownHawkeye]

I mean, aside from the random celebrity cameos (which honestly whatever, since they don't affect the story in any way)

Apologists for the show use the excuse that they didn't have enough time to wrap everything up with a neat bow, yet they're dedicating like 5 minutes of screentime to an Ed Sheeran cameo. I don't care about Radiohead showing up at the Red Wedding or Mac from Sunny showing up as an Iron Islander because those actually didn't affect the viewing experience. The Sheeran cameo on the other hand? Come on.

and maybe giving Tormund more screen time, I don't see how any of those things are "fan service".

We can debate on all of those individual points I brought up (and granted some lean more towards "lazy writing" than "let's give the fans what they want"), but if you don't see:

Spoiler:

-Davos making a joke about Gendry rowing - why is Davos saying this? Ml

-Lyanna Mormont's role in the show expanding after her initial appearance that was intended to be the only one

-Putting Olly front and center during the execution scene and zooming in exclusively on his face (you realize "**** OLLY" was a huge thing on reddit and Twitter, right?)

As fan service, or even understand how others would see them as fan service, then I really don't feel bad if you feel attacked by my "casual fan" talk. Even GRRM himself has gone on record talking about how the showrunners would start introducing characters into more storylines due to popularity.

If competent writing wasn't a sufficient condition for you to enjoy these last two seasons then I'm honestly kind of jealous.

[Mags FTW]

Oh, we really going for the "you casual schlubs ruined the last couple seasons" thing? I mean, I wasn't the biggest fan on how the pacing of this last season played out (episode 3 should have been the last episode), but people were obviously gonna crucify the writers no matter how the show ended.

Spoiler:

Finale was.....ok. Would have been a lot better had they built up more to Jon killing Danarys, but I thought the cinematography, especially the closing shots, were beautifully done. Thought that Bran being king was a good twist, but it doesn't really fit his character arc at all. But the series has mostly been about the Stark children since the beginning, so it's fitting that they end the show with all 3 of them going their seperate ways.

You were right after that ep - everything since felt anticlimactic. I think it should have been the penultimate episode though, ending with the immediate fallout.

Spoiler:

Not only from a storytelling standpoint, but also from a strategic standpoint, attacking King's Landing first made more sense to me.

Fight that battle first, conscript everyone instead of summarily executing them, and then take on the NK.

[Ron Swanson]

If competent writing wasn't a sufficient condition for you to enjoy these last two seasons then I'm honestly kind of jealous.

It's a fantasy TV show about magic and dragons man. Get off your high horse (or dire wolf if you will). The funny thing is that everyone pretty much agrees that they fudged the way they reached the conclusion, even if the conclusion was a logical one.

[Ron Swanson]

Oh, we really going for the "you casual schlubs ruined the last couple seasons" thing? I mean, I wasn't the biggest fan on how the pacing of this last season played out (episode 3 should have been the last episode), but people were obviously gonna crucify the writers no matter how the show ended.

Spoiler:

Finale was.....ok. Would have been a lot better had they built up more to Jon killing Danarys, but I thought the cinematography, especially the closing shots, were beautifully done. Thought that Bran being king was a good twist, but it doesn't really fit his character arc at all. But the series has mostly been about the Stark children since the beginning, so it's fitting that they end the show with all 3 of them going their seperate ways.

You were right after that ep - everything since felt anticlimactic. I think it should have been the penultimate episode though, ending with the immediate fallout.

That's what my initial worry was. It was just such a weird sequence of events that they chose rather than the more logical ordering of the episodes. Had they simply swapped the last 3 episodes with the first 3, everything would have much more sense from a narrative standpoint.

[James1980]

Spoiler:

Why does King Bran need a Master of Whispers, can't he see everything haha?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[humanrefutation]

Oh, we really going for the "you casual schlubs ruined the last couple seasons" thing? I mean, I wasn't the biggest fan on how the pacing of this last season played out (episode 3 should have been the last episode), but people were obviously gonna crucify the writers no matter how the show ended.

Spoiler:

Finale was.....ok. Would have been a lot better had they built up more to Jon killing Danarys, but I thought the cinematography, especially the closing shots, were beautifully done. Thought that Bran being king was a good twist, but it doesn't really fit his character arc at all. But the series has mostly been about the Stark children since the beginning, so it's fitting that they end the show with all 3 of them going their seperate ways.

You were right after that ep - everything since felt anticlimactic. I think it should have been the penultimate episode though, ending with the immediate fallout.

Spoiler:

Not only from a storytelling standpoint, but also from a strategic standpoint, attacking King's Landing first made more sense to me.

Fight that battle first, conscript everyone instead of summarily executing them, and then take on the NK.

Spoiler:

Completely agree. They kind of neutered the "Winter is Coming" plot that they've been establishing as the true existential threat to the universe by wrapping it up with one major battle in Episode 3. They could have had Jaime kill Cersei early on to realize that prophecy and then shift to NK for the rest of the season.