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Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#601 » by EastSideBucksFan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:03 pm

trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
This is closer to 15 ppg than 24 ppg.



You cut out 2/3 of my post and took away the context when I was responding to the "literally zero evidence he can increase his volume"

Congrats


He could increase his volume which also likely decreases his efficiency, so that's not great either.


Efficiency was not what was being discussed though
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#602 » by trwi7 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:05 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:

You cut out 2/3 of my post and took away the context when I was responding to the "literally zero evidence he can increase his volume"

Congrats


He could increase his volume which also likely decreases his efficiency, so that's not great either.


Efficiency was not what was being discussed though


Okay well I'm discussing it now. Middleton increasing his volume probably isn't great for the team because it's very likely it will decrease his efficiency.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#603 » by DavidDunn21 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:07 pm

mattg wrote:
Antinomy wrote:When Middleton averages 20-24ppg this year & plays in 75+ games, it’ll be interesting what the takes will be.

Middleton will be closer to averaging 15ppg than 24ppg. There is literally zero evidence that would predict he can suddenly increase his volume to that level.
This is correct. The gravitational pull of 18 PPG has been a constant for Khris. I can't imagine him ever averaging more than 21 even under perfect circumstances

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#604 » by Bucksfan28 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:08 pm

trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
This is closer to 15 ppg than 24 ppg.



You cut out 2/3 of my post and took away the context when I was responding to the "literally zero evidence he can increase his volume"

Congrats


He could increase his volume which also likely decreases his efficiency, so that's not great either.


His TS% was 2 points higher last year and highest of his career. That coincided w/ more 2PA though which is obviously not as emphasized in Bud's offense.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#605 » by trwi7 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:10 pm

Bucksfan28 wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:

You cut out 2/3 of my post and took away the context when I was responding to the "literally zero evidence he can increase his volume"

Congrats


He could increase his volume which also likely decreases his efficiency, so that's not great either.


His TS% was 2 points higher last year and highest of his career. That coincided w/ more 2PA though which is obviously not as emphasized in Bud's offense.


His TS% was the lowest it's been since his second year in the league while having the highest usage of his career, which kind of proves my point, doesn't it?
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#606 » by Bucksfan28 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:13 pm

trwi7 wrote:
Bucksfan28 wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
He could increase his volume which also likely decreases his efficiency, so that's not great either.


His TS% was 2 points higher last year and highest of his career. That coincided w/ more 2PA though which is obviously not as emphasized in Bud's offense.


His TS% was the lowest it's been since his second year in the league while having the highest usage of his career, which kind of proves my point, doesn't it?


I meant '17-'18. 20ppg, highest TS% of career on most FGA/gm of career. I think it's tough to project if that can happen again given Bud's wholly different approach to offense and minutes limitations that Khris will likely experience.

EDIT: And Mids' 3pt% was down from career norms as he was uncommonly average (35%) on C&S 3's. If he gets that number back above 40%, then scoring 20-24ppg w/o a dip in efficiency is a real possibility. And he shot 47% on C&S in '16-'17 on the same volume as last year so it wasn't an increase in attempts problem.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#607 » by mattg » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:33 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
mattg wrote:
Antinomy wrote:When Middleton averages 20-24ppg this year & plays in 75+ games, it’ll be interesting what the takes will be.

Middleton will be closer to averaging 15ppg than 24ppg. There is literally zero evidence that would predict he can suddenly increase his volume to that level.



Very bad post

He avg 18ppg last year, 20ppg the year before and like mentioned above 22ppg when Brogdon was out last year

He doesn’t have the conditioning to average 24ppg on whatever efficiency. Last year he averaged his highest points per36 of his career (and only time over 20) but only played 31 minutes per game. The year before he averaged 20 playing over 36 mins a night. 2 years before that he played a ton of minutes as well and didn’t sniff anywhere near 24ppg.

It just is what it is. Not every guy can continue the to scale their production with actual minutes played. You give Khris 30 mins he’ll averaged 17-19 points. Give him 36 mins and he’ll average around 20.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#608 » by EastSideBucksFan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:35 pm

mattg wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
mattg wrote:Middleton will be closer to averaging 15ppg than 24ppg. There is literally zero evidence that would predict he can suddenly increase his volume to that level.



Very bad post

He avg 18ppg last year, 20ppg the year before and like mentioned above 22ppg when Brogdon was out last year

He doesn’t have the conditioning to average 24ppg on whatever efficiency. Last year he averaged his highest points per36 of his career (and only time over 20) but only played 31 minutes per game. The year before he averaged 20 playing over 36 mins a night. 2 years before that he played a ton of minutes as well and didn’t sniff anywhere near 24ppg.

It just is what it is. Not every guy can continue the to scale their production with actual minutes played. You give Khris 30 mins he’ll averaged 17-19 points. Give him 36 mins and he’ll average around 20.


He had a really rocky integration into Bud's system for the first half of the season

Between comfort, contract and available shots, personally feel he's going to settle in around 21-22ppg this year
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#609 » by trwi7 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:48 pm

EastSideBucksFan wrote:
mattg wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:

Very bad post

He avg 18ppg last year, 20ppg the year before and like mentioned above 22ppg when Brogdon was out last year

He doesn’t have the conditioning to average 24ppg on whatever efficiency. Last year he averaged his highest points per36 of his career (and only time over 20) but only played 31 minutes per game. The year before he averaged 20 playing over 36 mins a night. 2 years before that he played a ton of minutes as well and didn’t sniff anywhere near 24ppg.

It just is what it is. Not every guy can continue the to scale their production with actual minutes played. You give Khris 30 mins he’ll averaged 17-19 points. Give him 36 mins and he’ll average around 20.


He had a really rocky integration into Bud's system for the first half of the season

Between comfort, contract and available shots, personally feel he's going to settle in around 21-22ppg this year


Wasn't he really good for the most part for the first 15-20 games of the season, then went into a shooting slump and complained that he couldn't take midrange jumpers? Seems like the struggle was just a slump that he used to complain to go back to the way he used to play.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#610 » by EastSideBucksFan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:57 pm

trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
mattg wrote:He doesn’t have the conditioning to average 24ppg on whatever efficiency. Last year he averaged his highest points per36 of his career (and only time over 20) but only played 31 minutes per game. The year before he averaged 20 playing over 36 mins a night. 2 years before that he played a ton of minutes as well and didn’t sniff anywhere near 24ppg.

It just is what it is. Not every guy can continue the to scale their production with actual minutes played. You give Khris 30 mins he’ll averaged 17-19 points. Give him 36 mins and he’ll average around 20.


He had a really rocky integration into Bud's system for the first half of the season

Between comfort, contract and available shots, personally feel he's going to settle in around 21-22ppg this year


Wasn't he really good for the most part for the first 15-20 games of the season, then went into a shooting slump and complained that he couldn't take midrange jumpers? Seems like the struggle was just a slump that he used to complain to go back to the way he used to play.



Yeah, he started off on fire, like the entire team, Bud had him playing a volume 3pt shooter which worked at first when the league had no tape on the new system, but faded quickly and then they kept adjusting how he was getting his shots. Yes, he slumps every year, so that can't be written off, but his shot profile was a big shift from his career norms so that can't be ignored either.

Once the end of the season came around, Brogdon was out, Bucks were rolling over teams that were cashed out on the season and his production went into a pretty good place, but the efficiency dipped.

GP MIN FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Oct 7 30.6 6.4-13.0 49.5 4.0-7.3 54.9 3.9-4.4 87.1 0.3 5.3 5.6 3.9 0.3 1.4 2.9 2.4 20.7
Nov 14 31.7 6.2-14.4 43.1 2.6-7.4 35.0 2.9-3.1 93.2 0.5 5.1 5.6 4.2 0.1 1.2 2.6 2.3 17.9
Dec 12 31.3 5.8-14.9 38.5 1.9-6.4 29.9 2.5-3.1 81.1 0.4 5.8 6.3 4.0 0.0 1.0 2.3 2.2 15.9
Jan 15 31.0 6.3-13.4 47.3 1.7-4.3 38.5 2.1-2.7 75.6 0.6 4.9 5.5 4.4 0.1 0.9 1.9 2.2 16.4
Feb 10 30.8 6.2-15.0 41.3 2.1-5.4 38.9 3.1-3.9 79.5 0.6 6.3 6.9 4.4 0.1 0.8 1.8 2.4 17.6
Mar 15 32.7 7.7-17.1 44.9 2.4-6.4 37.5 2.9-3.5 84.6 1.3 5.5 6.9 4.8 0.1 1.0 2.3 2.1 20.7
Apr 4 24.3 8.3-17.3 47.8 2.5-7.0 35.7 3.0-3.5 85.7 0.3 3.0 3.3 3.8 0.3 1.0 1.5 2.5 22.0
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#611 » by mattg » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:59 pm

trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
mattg wrote:He doesn’t have the conditioning to average 24ppg on whatever efficiency. Last year he averaged his highest points per36 of his career (and only time over 20) but only played 31 minutes per game. The year before he averaged 20 playing over 36 mins a night. 2 years before that he played a ton of minutes as well and didn’t sniff anywhere near 24ppg.

It just is what it is. Not every guy can continue the to scale their production with actual minutes played. You give Khris 30 mins he’ll averaged 17-19 points. Give him 36 mins and he’ll average around 20.


He had a really rocky integration into Bud's system for the first half of the season

Between comfort, contract and available shots, personally feel he's going to settle in around 21-22ppg this year


Wasn't he really good for the most part for the first 15-20 games of the season, then went into a shooting slump and complained that he couldn't take midrange jumpers? Seems like the struggle was just a slump that he used to complain to go back to the way he used to play.

Yeah he came out and was shooting something absurd like 55% from deep to start with and Middleton fanboys were throwing it in everyone’s faces. Then he slumped for like 2 months and got benched for poor effort before turning things around.

But to say that Khris had a “rocky integration into buds system” without placing all that squarely on him and his attitude, lack of conditioning, and poor performance is ridiculous.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#612 » by EastSideBucksFan » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:04 pm

mattg wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
EastSideBucksFan wrote:
He had a really rocky integration into Bud's system for the first half of the season

Between comfort, contract and available shots, personally feel he's going to settle in around 21-22ppg this year


Wasn't he really good for the most part for the first 15-20 games of the season, then went into a shooting slump and complained that he couldn't take midrange jumpers? Seems like the struggle was just a slump that he used to complain to go back to the way he used to play.

Yeah he came out and was shooting something absurd like 55% from deep to start with and Middleton fanboys were throwing it in everyone’s faces. Then he slumped for like 2 months and got benched for poor effort before turning things around.

But to say that Khris had a “rocky integration into buds system” without placing all that squarely on him and his attitude, lack of conditioning, and poor performance is ridiculous.



By all accounts, Khris came into camp in the best shape of his career.

But yeah, there was an attitude issue and a team suspension that nobody on the team or the media will admit was a team suspension, but, he was benched for a game for effort/attitude (something Kidd did too) and then they moved on from it.

But, to not acknowledge it was a major shot profile adjustment for him is also ridiculous
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#613 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:19 pm

headline....nba vet in midst of shooting funk coasts a few games on defense over 82 game season.

a real news story there.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#614 » by mattg » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:57 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:headline....nba vet in midst of shooting funk coasts a few games on defense over 82 game season.

a real news story there.

Once again, if Khris wasn’t nonchalant and lazy in so many aspects of his game then people wouldn’t harp on it.

How bout this headline:

7th highest paid player in NBA history averages 14ppg in conference finals en route to stunning collapse.

I swear, if some of you treated Brandon Jennings how you treat Khris Middleton where nothing is ever his fault, no accountability, always some justification or excuse, we would have maxed yung money.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#615 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:06 pm

This conditioning thing is a joke. Dude was in shape. Was he in Giannis shape? No. Was he Oliver Miller? Uh, no.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#616 » by Bucksfan28 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:37 pm

Always love the "lazy" and "nonchalant" claims. "Hey, you don't meet this very stringent image I have of competitiveness so I'm gonna throw a bitch-fit about every little thing you do" :curse:
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#617 » by crkone » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:50 pm

Sweats too much for my liking = Not in shape.

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#618 » by mattg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:27 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:This conditioning thing is a joke. Dude was in shape. Was he in Giannis shape? No. Was he Oliver Miller? Uh, no.

Its not about being out of shape. You hear nba players talk about it all the time, it’s exhausting to even create enough to take 20 shots a game, let alone make them. Some guys no matter how hard they work, will never have that level of fitness. And that’s where Khris is. He doesn’t have the conditioning to produce at the same level he does for the first 30 minutes he plays for an additional 6-8 minutes.

And I’m not going to argue with anyone over Khris being non-chalant. Dude never plays with urgency ever which is why he has so many silly mistakes that are unforced. If that’s the hill anyone wants to die on we can pull footage from basically every single game he’s played.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#619 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:45 pm

mattg wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:This conditioning thing is a joke. Dude was in shape. Was he in Giannis shape? No. Was he Oliver Miller? Uh, no.

Its not about being out of shape. You hear nba players talk about it all the time, it’s exhausting to even create enough to take 20 shots a game, let alone make them. Some guys no matter how hard they work, will never have that level of fitness. And that’s where Khris is. He doesn’t have the conditioning to produce at the same level he does for the first 30 minutes he plays for an additional 6-8 minutes.

And I’m not going to argue with anyone over Khris being non-chalant. Dude never plays with urgency ever which is why he has so many silly mistakes that are unforced. If that’s the hill anyone wants to die on we can pull footage from basically every single game he’s played.


I'd be interested to see his splits by time of game. What is his ORtg from minute 30 - 35, 35 - 40 etc. I don't know if that exists.




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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#620 » by mattg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:54 pm

Yeah there’s certain advanced stuff that would be great to know, but either I’m not sure if anyone has taken the time to do the work and it doesn’t exist, or I just don’t know where to find it.

An unrelated thing I was thinking about recently was team stats comparing efficiency metrics per possession split by the amount of time on the shot clock when the possession began. Like, these are Milwaukee’s metrics on possessions where the ball crossed halfcourt with 21 on the shot clock vs 20, 19, 18, 17, etc. I think there is so much to be gleaned from that.

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