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Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#661 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:19 pm

mattg wrote:
BroncoBuck wrote:
mattg wrote:Do you remember what Khris looked like his first season here after the trade anytime we let him be a PnR handler? Not even gonna go into dribbling in ISO situations lol.


Middleton became a pretty decent ball handler by his second season here. Christ, the guy played power forward minutes in Detroit lol. Brown has been in the league 3 years and still can’t dribble. He has a few spectacular dunks, but for every one of those he has a few botched finishes at the rim. He has to rank near the very bottom of iso players in the league. Some team (hopefully Boston) is going to think they can fix his game and end up giving him a ridiculous contract based on potential.

This about sums up my thoughts on what I think of Jaylen Brown…


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Taurean+Prince&player_id1_select=Taurean+Prince&player_id1=princta02&player_id2_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2_select=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2=brownja02&idx=players

I'm not arguing that Brown is some great player or that he deserves the max, just found it ironic to chide a team for potentially giving him the max given that we literally just gave a dude the max who couldn't dribble any better than Brown at the same age and still can't reliably dribble in ISO situations or against ball pressure without turning it over.


Uhh, what?

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=POSS*G*2:PLAYER_NAME*E*
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#662 » by KidA24 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:52 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:
mattg wrote:
BroncoBuck wrote:
Middleton became a pretty decent ball handler by his second season here. Christ, the guy played power forward minutes in Detroit lol. Brown has been in the league 3 years and still can’t dribble. He has a few spectacular dunks, but for every one of those he has a few botched finishes at the rim. He has to rank near the very bottom of iso players in the league. Some team (hopefully Boston) is going to think they can fix his game and end up giving him a ridiculous contract based on potential.

This about sums up my thoughts on what I think of Jaylen Brown…


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Taurean+Prince&player_id1_select=Taurean+Prince&player_id1=princta02&player_id2_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2_select=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2=brownja02&idx=players

I'm not arguing that Brown is some great player or that he deserves the max, just found it ironic to chide a team for potentially giving him the max given that we literally just gave a dude the max who couldn't dribble any better than Brown at the same age and still can't reliably dribble in ISO situations or against ball pressure without turning it over.


Uhh, what?

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=POSS*G*2:PLAYER_NAME*E*


Also, 8.0 TOV %. Lower than Butler, Giannis, Oladipo, Beal, DeRozan (and middle of the pack on that list).
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#663 » by Pachinko_ » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:57 pm

Just from the title I know this thread is gonna be toxic.
For about 5 years LOL
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#664 » by Bucksfan28 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:03 pm

KidA24 wrote:
Also, 8.0 TOV %. Lower than Butler, Giannis, Oladipo, Beal, DeRozan (and middle of the pack on that list).


Mids could average 0 turnovers/gm and would still get called an unreliable turnover machine.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#665 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:14 pm

Pachinko_ wrote:Just from the title I know this thread is gonna be toxic.
For about 5 years LOL


We all knew this. That's why the debate started a year ago.

On a "market value" basis, in a market that includes plenty of dumb owners, and teams that are forced to spend a certain amount of money each year, he's worth his 5/$178mm.

But note, his "market worth" is a result of a distorted marketplace, created by the collective bargaining agreement.

From a pure "basketball contract" value. He's a lot closer to 4/$100mm.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#666 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:31 pm

Stressing over market value is understandable when you're not a contender and you should be prioritizing long-term flexibility and movable assets. When you are a contender, you shouldn't give a **** about market value if your goal is to retain your best players and compete for a championship. It's literally that simple.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#667 » by JimmyTheKid » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:24 pm

DrWood wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:Super cant wait for this next season when every game becomes a referendum on Khris's contract. Great fun. Much wonderful.

It shouldn't be. It was a bad contract the day it was signed and it will be bad the day Khris retires. Is there any point in arguing if it's the 5th worst contract or 10th worst contract in the nba?


Exactly. As one of the loudest "DONT PAY KHRIS MIDDLETON!!!" voices on this forum, I'll pledge to not make every crap game a referendum on his contract. If he's only marginally better than he's been, or exactly the same, I'll have no problem honoring that pledge. However... if Khris Middleton is a noticeably worse basketball player going forward, thereby hurting the Bucks' contender status, I'm going to be annoying. And if he manages to magically "take the next step" I'll happily eat crow.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#668 » by crkone » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:27 pm

I'm just glad there is a block function on this forum.

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#669 » by tydett » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:25 pm

crkone wrote:I'm just glad there is a block function on this forum.


When you block everyone but elite poster Chuck Diesel, it gets pretty lonely around here.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#670 » by Krispy Kreme » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:59 pm

I didn't like the contract regardless, but I'm not going to nitpick everything he does/doesn't do.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#671 » by mattg » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:02 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:
mattg wrote:
BroncoBuck wrote:
Middleton became a pretty decent ball handler by his second season here. Christ, the guy played power forward minutes in Detroit lol. Brown has been in the league 3 years and still can’t dribble. He has a few spectacular dunks, but for every one of those he has a few botched finishes at the rim. He has to rank near the very bottom of iso players in the league. Some team (hopefully Boston) is going to think they can fix his game and end up giving him a ridiculous contract based on potential.

This about sums up my thoughts on what I think of Jaylen Brown…


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Taurean+Prince&player_id1_select=Taurean+Prince&player_id1=princta02&player_id2_hint=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2_select=Jaylen+Brown&player_id2=brownja02&idx=players

I'm not arguing that Brown is some great player or that he deserves the max, just found it ironic to chide a team for potentially giving him the max given that we literally just gave a dude the max who couldn't dribble any better than Brown at the same age and still can't reliably dribble in ISO situations or against ball pressure without turning it over.


Uhh, what?

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=POSS*G*2:PLAYER_NAME*E*

Khris taking dribbling in place and not actually going anywhere to get rhythm for a pull up jumper is totally indicative of his ability to dribble in ISO against defense pressure. Same when he’s backing down a guy mid post to shoot a turnaround fade. Like goddamn the density here sometimes is insane. I can’t even believe bringing up tov% for a dude who basically only takes pull up jumpers and comparing him to guys who relentlessly attack the rim off the bounce. Like what fantasy land is this where people pull up advanced stats but don’t bother to even consider the context of them.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#672 » by crkone » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:40 pm

tydett wrote:
crkone wrote:I'm just glad there is a block function on this forum.


When you block everyone but elite poster Chuck Diesel, it gets pretty lonely around here.


I unblocked you for this garbage post???? :wink: :D

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#673 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:42 pm

Really weird sinking ship to keep clinging to considering on drives, Middleton was the 7th most efficient SF and his TO% was basically identically low (8.2%). Of all the legitimate faults in Khris' game, this idea that he can't dribble a basketball against defensive pressure without turning it over seems pretty certifiably false. And I'm not even a "numbers are gospel" guy, but maybe do a little research next time before calling other people "dense"?

:dontknow:
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#674 » by crkone » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:04 pm

mattg wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:
mattg wrote:I'm not arguing that Brown is some great player or that he deserves the max, just found it ironic to chide a team for potentially giving him the max given that we literally just gave a dude the max who couldn't dribble any better than Brown at the same age and still can't reliably dribble in ISO situations or against ball pressure without turning it over.


Uhh, what?

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?sort=PPP&dir=1&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=POSS*G*2:PLAYER_NAME*E*

Khris taking dribbling in place and not actually going anywhere to get rhythm for a pull up jumper is totally indicative of his ability to dribble in ISO against defense pressure. Same when he’s backing down a guy mid post to shoot a turnaround fade. Like goddamn the density here sometimes is insane. I can’t even believe bringing up tov% for a dude who basically only takes pull up jumpers and comparing him to guys who relentlessly attack the rim off the bounce. Like what fantasy land is this where people pull up advanced stats but don’t bother to even consider the context of them.


To look at Mids' stats while on the move I looked at drives. Middleton took 601 drives last year. He had 49 TOs for a TO% of 8.2, about .63 TOs on drives per game. Using an arbitrary cutoff of 500 or more drives, he's 9th worst in the league in TO% out of 74. He's also 26th out of these in ast% so he's creating out of drives a fair bit too (2nd best on the team behind Bledsoe). Mids is 27th out of these 74 in FG% on drives. He's not the best in the league on dribbling in drives but he's not awful.

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&sort=DRIVE_TOV_PCT&dir=1&CF=DRIVES*GE*500

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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#675 » by truly » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:13 pm

I think the problem with Mids that makes people think he is awful dribbling/passing the ball,is how nonchalant/lazy he seems when it happens.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#676 » by Zeezprah » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:40 pm

i would be more interested in the variances/splits/standard deviations in regards to khris' stats vs other similar players as opposed to the averages.

i was admittedly against signing khris to the contract, but even i admit he can get hot, it's the lows/bad streaks he regularly provides that make him not worth the money IMO.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#677 » by mattg » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:09 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Really weird sinking ship to keep clinging to considering on drives, Middleton was the 7th most efficient SF and his TO% was basically identically low (8.2%). Of all the legitimate faults in Khris' game, this idea that he can't dribble a basketball against defensive pressure without turning it over seems pretty certifiably false. And I'm not even a "numbers are gospel" guy, but maybe do a little research next time before calling other people "dense"?

:dontknow:

We have truly entered the era of dumbness. Do we need to pull tape from the Toronto series because you already forgot it or didn’t watch?

Even Khris’ nuthugger Eric Nehm has a YouTube video up from a few years ago captioned that Khris was used more as a playmaker than ever and heavily struggled in the role with turnovers.

Anyway I’m done arguing dumb Middleton stuff. Anyone with half brain knows he dribbles the ball off his own legs routinely with no defense present and gets picked whenever he tries to make an advanced move or dance against ball pressure. This wasn’t even supposed to be ripping Middleton at first but the crazy fervent defenses that people rush to that don’t even make sense are mind numbing.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#678 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:21 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Stressing over market value is understandable when you're not a contender and you should be prioritizing long-term flexibility and movable assets. When you are a contender, you shouldn't give a **** about market value if your goal is to retain your best players and compete for a championship. It's literally that simple.


I'm not sure there is ever a reason to give out a bad contract. They always come back to bite you.

That said, definitely acknowledge the Bucks have a chance to thread the needle, if they get one title out of this, with Khris as a key contributor.

But yeah, for the 80th time, I would have split his money among Brogdon and Bogdanovic, and taken my chances with a deeper, more versatile team. There was another pathway here.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#679 » by ReasonablySober » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:30 pm

The Bucks made the ECF last season. They were favored. They are the favorite to win the East in a year where Giannis can sign an extension at the end of it. There was no way in hell the Bucks could have afforded to not give Midds that deal. Zero.
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Re: Woj: Bucks to Re-Sign Khris Middleton to a 5 year, $178M Contract 

Post#680 » by blazza18 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:43 am

Unless you think Khris Middleton is the reason we're a "betting" title favourite, then there was absolutely a way to be a contender and not give him $180 million.
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