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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Sun Aug 4, 2019 2:33 am
by DrWood
soxperry wrote:
8305 wrote:To summarize, everyone is pretty skeptical about Brogdan's ability as a pg. Tell me if makes things any better. I think the expectation will be to give George Hill type play. Once Vic returns we will have a ball dominate wing much like you guys with Giannis. George Hill manned the pg spot for us for four years. He brought the ball up the floor, ran some pick and roll, spotted up for three's and occasionally took the ball to the basket. Otherwise his task was to fit into an offense where the goal was to share the ball. How does Brogdan fit into that job description? You guys have seen both Hill and Brogdan. Would seem like you should have a pretty good feel for this.


Brogdon does a few things very well (catch and shoot 3s, free throws, layups), but is very average in basically every other category. Im sure he can be effective if your coach plays to his strengths.

he's not a great catch and shoot guy because he can't do it quickly.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Mon Aug 5, 2019 8:38 pm
by Ruzious
soxperry wrote:
8305 wrote:To summarize, everyone is pretty skeptical about Brogdan's ability as a pg. Tell me if makes things any better. I think the expectation will be to give George Hill type play. Once Vic returns we will have a ball dominate wing much like you guys with Giannis. George Hill manned the pg spot for us for four years. He brought the ball up the floor, ran some pick and roll, spotted up for three's and occasionally took the ball to the basket. Otherwise his task was to fit into an offense where the goal was to share the ball. How does Brogdan fit into that job description? You guys have seen both Hill and Brogdan. Would seem like you should have a pretty good feel for this.


Brogdon does a few things very well (catch and shoot 3s, free throws, layups), but is very average in basically every other category. Im sure he can be effective if your coach plays to his strengths.

This is kinda silly. Brogdon's an excellent shooting guard - and one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA. He's also a quality defender with excellent length, strength, reactions - and average quickness. As others have said, he can help at the PG and has some PG skills, but he's primarlity a shooting guard. I think Indiana's thoughts long-term are that Brogdon and Dipo play together with Dipo running the offense most of the time.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:32 am
by old skool
I think we need to be careful not to understate Brogdon's abilities. He is slow of foot, but strong, steady and smart. I think he brings a lot to the Pacer's and the Bucks will miss him.

I think Brogdon's greatest limitation is the modest number of minutes he plays. If the Pacer's want to Brogdon to replace Bogdanovic, I think they will be disappointed in some respects. Last year Bogdanovic played 2,573 minutes, while Brogdon only played 1832 minutes. Brogdon's offensive efficiency does not offset his lack of durability.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:13 am
by DavidDunn21
old skool wrote:I think we need to be careful not to understate Brogdon's abilities. He is slow of foot, but strong, steady and smart. I think he brings a lot to the Pacer's and the Bucks will miss him.

I think Brogdon's greatest limitation is the modest number of minutes he plays. If the Pacer's want to Brogdon to replace Bogdanovic, I think they will be disappointed in some respects. Last year Bogdanovic played 2,573 minutes, while Brogdon only played 1832 minutes. Brogdon's offensive efficiency does not offset his lack of durability.

Minutes sminutes. The Bucks destroyed teams all year. Brogdon played 64 games, Bogdan 81. Had Malcolm not gotten injured, Bud would've still likely load managemented him another 3-5 games anyway. If the Bucks were a 48 win team without a strong bench, Brogdon plays more minutes a game. If the Bucks were the exact same team minus Eric Bledsoe (our regular season 2nd banana), Brogdon plays more minutes a game.

This is not directed at you, I just think the attempt to act as if we were constantly disappointed by Malcolm Brogdon is simply spin. We were generally super happy with the production we got from a second round pick. We were proud of him as a spokesman. We wanted him on the floor at the end of games. And we disrespected him and didn't resign him for no good reason, even as Khris Middleton was revealed to be a coward and a fraud.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:03 pm
by coolhandluke121
In his exit interview, Brogdon said he wanted to shed some weight. I think that would be a good idea. He's not out of shape per se, but he could be a little leaner. Also, you only need so much upper body muscle in basketball. It has benefits, but when you talk about a guy whose biggest issues are quickness at PG and lower body injuries, the costs of any extra mass far outweigh any benefits. I still don't think he'll be a good PG, but it could help.

I don't see the George Hill comparison. Hill has better lateral quickness even now, let alone in his prime, and he knows how to keep the ball moving around the perimeter. He can also dribble with his head up and facing forward against pressure, as opposed to having to turn sideways or even backwards to protect the dribble.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:27 pm
by AussieBuck
I think he can be a great second unit partner to Sabonis once Dipo us back and they stagger the starters. Kinda like when Monroe was briefly good off the bench for us with Brogdon.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:59 pm
by brettski
Brogdon got into a lot of fast breaks last season. I dint think he once passed the ball. Even when he had Giannis running with him.

Dude has poor vision / dribbles with his head down. Thats his biggest weakness playing point guard.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:08 am
by soxperry
Heard from someone over the weekend who heard from someone who associates with the Bucks players directly that Brogdon hated the city and wanted out.

So, while they could be lying, this isn't based on any news articles new or old.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:49 am
by DavidDunn21
soxperry wrote:Heard from someone over the weekend who heard from someone who associates with the Bucks players directly that Brogdon hated the city and wanted out.

So, while they could be lying, this isn't based on any news articles new or old.

But then he went to Indianapolis, so....

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:21 pm
by DavidDunn21
DavidDunn21 wrote:
H2tObes wrote:
FrieAaron wrote:
4 of those games were against a Detroit game with a hobbled Blake Griffin. We very well may have swept them without Brogdon and Middleton combined. They played well without him against Boston, obviously. But I think it's relevant that we were 11-7 without him the regular season. Having Hill and Matthews should help but I still wouldn't be surprised if we took a slight step back this year unless Giannis takes yet another step forward, which he might.

It's interesting that people ignore the playoff games when this conversation comes up, then proceed to only look at context for the playoff games after the 7-1 playoff record is brought up. The fact of the matter is that we were 18-8 without Brogdon last year, which is obviously very good.

Maybe we do take a step back, but I don't think bringing up record w/o him last year helps that argument

On the other hand, we were 14-2 with Brogdon in the lineup from Christmas Day to Jan 27.
We were 12-1 with Brogdon in the lineup from Jan 31 to Mar 1.

He had some clunker games over the course of the year like everybody, but he certainly didn't have anything like the bad month that Middleton had. He was good against the Warriors and Rockets. He hit some big shots. He stayed in his lane. He's a solid player that any team would want at a reasonable price, which ironically was the exact same thing we heard about Middleton the last time he was up for a contract.

I'd be interested in knowing if all sides are entrenched in their positions after admittedly only 4 games or is there now some regret for the way things shook out.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:47 pm
by leroyjw10
DavidDunn21 wrote:
DavidDunn21 wrote:
H2tObes wrote:It's interesting that people ignore the playoff games when this conversation comes up, then proceed to only look at context for the playoff games after the 7-1 playoff record is brought up. The fact of the matter is that we were 18-8 without Brogdon last year, which is obviously very good.

Maybe we do take a step back, but I don't think bringing up record w/o him last year helps that argument

On the other hand, we were 14-2 with Brogdon in the lineup from Christmas Day to Jan 27.
We were 12-1 with Brogdon in the lineup from Jan 31 to Mar 1.

He had some clunker games over the course of the year like everybody, but he certainly didn't have anything like the bad month that Middleton had. He was good against the Warriors and Rockets. He hit some big shots. He stayed in his lane. He's a solid player that any team would want at a reasonable price, which ironically was the exact same thing we heard about Middleton the last time he was up for a contract.

I'd be interested in knowing if all sides are entrenched in their positions after admittedly only 4 games or is there now some regret for the way things shook out.


I remain entrenched in my position of being a Brogdon stan. He was always my No. 1 free-agent priority for the Bucks and his play so far has only solidified that position.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:59 pm
by paulpressey25
DavidDunn21 wrote:I'd be interested in knowing if all sides are entrenched in their positions after admittedly only 4 games or is there now some regret for the way things shook out.


Eh. Still too early.

But I'd also note that there are a lot of different angles here. A number of the Middleton fans you spar with on Twitter wanted the Bucks to also sign Brogdon, and have the owners cough up the extra $50 to $250 million he'd cost over the next couple years with the luxury tax this year, then possible repeater tax down the road.

If you believe that it's ok to invest $200 to $250 million additional tax money to match Brogdon, I'm not on board with that, nor do I think it reasonable. So I won't criticize LEDF for not paying that dough. But I would critique them for the Middleton over Brogdon/2nd player.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:05 pm
by Cooleyo47
Brogdon was marginalized but was never just a marginal player for us.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:07 pm
by tydett
paulpressey25 wrote:
DavidDunn21 wrote:I'd be interested in knowing if all sides are entrenched in their positions after admittedly only 4 games or is there now some regret for the way things shook out.


Eh. Still too early.

But I'd also note that there are a lot of different angles here. A number of the Middleton fans you spar with on Twitter wanted the Bucks to also sign Brogdon, and have the owners cough up the extra $50 to $250 million he'd cost over the next couple years with the luxury tax this year, then possible repeater tax down the road.

If you believe that it's ok to invest $200 to $250 million additional tax money to match Brogdon, I'm not on board with that, nor do I think it reasonable. So I won't criticize LEDF for not paying that dough. But I would critique them for the Middleton over Brogdon/2nd player.


The crux of the argument. I don't think you'll find many here who think Brogdon is objectively not a good basketball player. And you'll probably find even fewer who believe that, if circumstances were different, he shouldn't have been retained. The difficulty is that (and I agree with this view) Brogdon should've been retained and Middleton allowed to walk if the Bucks didn't want to pay the luxury tax, but that was pretty much a pipe dream once Middleton was named an All-Star and Brogdon (allegedly) declared he wanted to go to a different team.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:25 pm
by paulpressey25
tydett wrote:[The difficulty is that (and I agree with this view) Brogdon should've been retained and Middleton allowed to walk if the Bucks didn't want to pay the luxury tax, but that was pretty much a pipe dream once Middleton was named an All-Star and Brogdon (allegedly) declared he wanted to go to a different team.


I don't fault the Bucks for choosing Middleton over Brogdon. Many reasons why you'd do that.

But I'd guess we'll see the Middleton crowd respond back that the Bucks should have kept both. That's that part I don't agree with. Because with contracts ($178mm + $84mm) and possible luxury tax ramifications ($200mm) your looking at $450 million for Brogs and Middleton. LOL, no.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:42 pm
by DingleJerry
Good convo. I'd add that if you had kept Brogdon at roughly the contract he got, you could also have let Hill go and went for a league min depth guy. Probably the exact same guys they have now actually. So it would reduce that price tag down a bit. Brog is ballpark 11ish more per year than Hill.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:49 pm
by Nowak008
paulpressey25 wrote:
tydett wrote:[The difficulty is that (and I agree with this view) Brogdon should've been retained and Middleton allowed to walk if the Bucks didn't want to pay the luxury tax, but that was pretty much a pipe dream once Middleton was named an All-Star and Brogdon (allegedly) declared he wanted to go to a different team.


I don't fault the Bucks for choosing Middleton over Brogdon. Many reasons why you'd do that.

But I'd guess we'll see the Middleton crowd respond back that the Bucks should have kept both. That's that part I don't agree with. Because with contracts ($178mm + $84mm) and possible luxury tax ramifications ($200mm) your looking at $450 million for Brogs and Middleton. LOL, no.


What kind of math is that? Our luxury tax bill this year wouldn't have been that bad. It would have been a reasonable amount given that we came into the season with the #1 projected wins on the year. How many title teams have not been tax teams? Ridiculous.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:50 pm
by humanrefutation
My problem right now is that I have yet to see any evidence which justifies paying Middleton twice as much as what Brogdon got from Indy. With Middleton, the arguments in his favor - of which there are legitimate ones - have been more theoretical than actual.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:51 pm
by humanrefutation
I mean, truthfully, it might turn out that the best course of action was to let Bledsoe walk and keep Middleton and Brogdon.

Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:51 pm
by aboveAverage
When you have a championship level team in ANY city, you pay the tax, let alone in Milwaukee. I will never forgive the owners for letting Brogdon go if that was the real reason.