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Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1681 » by LUKE23 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:46 pm

2018-19:

O Rating: 113.8 (4th)
D Rating: 105.2 (1st)
Net Rating: +8.6 (1st)
SRS: 8.04 (1st)

2019-20:

O Rating: 112.3 (3rd)
D Rating: 103.7 (8th)
Net Rating: +8.6 (3rd)
SRS: 10.25 (1st)

I'd say pretty comparable in terms of production so far. In terms of SRS, which I value highly, they are actually better than last year, although I do expect that number to drop some. We are actually playing slightly better D so far this year than last.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1682 » by M-C-G » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:52 pm

rilamann wrote:[tweet][/tweet]
Pachinko_ wrote:
rilamann wrote:It's still early, so it's hard to say if the Bucks were better last season. My perception so far is that it seems like they're putting fourth less effort this season to get better results than last season. I think they're a championship level team that knows they don't have to try and hit thier ceiling in November. We'll see.

We're still warming up, same as last year. Around Xmas we should be ready.

That's why I have a hard time buying that the team was better last season. We're an overtime, a buzzer beater and a big blown lead in Boston from being 15-0 and it doesn't seem like this team has even flirted with their ceiling or warmed up thus far. Last season it seemed like we had to play harder to win 12 of 15. This season it seems like we're winning 12 of 15 by just showing up.


Yep, whether it is more talented, we better understand how people fit, or whatever, this team is better than last season in my opinion. We are 21st in 3PT% and still 12-3 and part of that is without Middleton.

I look at last year and I see we shot +40% in Oct and Nov and were 15-6 by end Nov. EDIT: Disregard that was attempts not %

So we can see how this plays out, but DDV's play, in my opinion has absolutely softened the blow of losing not just Brogdon, but Middleton to some extent.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1683 » by coolhandluke121 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:37 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:you know I like you as a poster and weve agreed a lot in the past on a lot but it blows my mind to hear you talking about brogdon as if we whiffed something. 85 million on possibly the biggest injury risk guy in the last 25 years. just be glad we averted potential disaster and that every contract on this roster is EASILY moveable if a move needs to be made we got options galore(and some picks from indy :D )


You're a great poster and we still agree on a lot, but I gotta tell you you're stanning way too hard for Khris here. Hate to say it but it reminds me a little of Brandon Knight. That's not to say they're remotely comparable as players, but sometimes you get this loyalty (which isn't a bad thing in and of itself) and you don't even acknowledge any uncertainty, let alone strong contrary evidence.

I'm not talking about Brogdon like they whiffed something. I've made it clear I don't think he's anything special, and when I thought Khris was going to get something reasonable like 4/$110m, I said it was a no-brainer to choose him over Brogdon. But I think even Herb Kohl would be incredulous if his gm told him Khris gets 5/$178. He's not even close to that much better than Brogdon. It's not about wanting Brogdon back so much as it's about all the opportunity cost of paying Khris that much.

You simplify it into Khris + Indy picks vs. Brogdon, but Khris's $19.5m cap hold being off the books last summer was worth more than a pick in the teens and you know it. Teams routinely give up picks like that to free half that much cap space. You can sign of Bogdanovic, or if free agency is unkind just re-up Mirotic, who supposedly wanted to stay. Utah wanted to pay him 3/$45m so if you can assume Khris has trade value, I can assume Mirotic has it too.

Alternatively, if you don't use the cap space, you don't have to worry about losing the full MLE year after year because you're deep in the tax when Giannis gets paid. You can keep Leuer and Hill on their expiring deals instead of kicking the can down the road. You don't give away a pick to clear Snell. You don't have worry about losing the BAE. You don't have to worry about losing guys like Pat C and Brown for nothing. You don't have to wring your hands worrying about which corpses will sign the vet minimum every year and desperately hope they can be effective as a top-8 rotation guy while you're trying to contend (see 2014 Miami). And how much is DDV going to make in 2.5 years? Are we going to lose him for a mediocre pick too and go through all the same crap about how whether Khris + a pick is better than DDV, ignoring all the other complications from Khris's salary?
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1684 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:06 am

Too bad we didn’t have a poll when the trade was made. Is here still a Bucks fan left who doesn’t like this deal?
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1685 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:51 am

DutchManDanFan wrote:Too bad we didn’t have a poll when the trade was made. Is here still a Bucks fan left who doesn’t like this deal?


It's not about whether they like the deal; it's about whether they would rather have paid Brogdon than Khris with roughly $15m to spare. Nobody can just assume being this good proves that choosing Khris over Brogdon was the right call. They are similar players in many respects, and the Bucks didn't exactly struggle without Khris last month.

I was never a Brogdon stan at all, and I always thought he was the least important of the Bucks' group of free agents when it comes to total wins added. But that margin was fairly thin, and I would still rather have Brogdon's contract on the books.

Khris has been the best version of himself we've seen since spring 2016 though. I mean he's playing better in a sustainable way that doesn't require some insane hot streak like the 2018 Boston series. I think the minutes reduction, combined with sitting out and watching DDV and Wes frankly outplay the bad version of Khris, has made a difference. All is well that ends well.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1686 » by BroncoBuck » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:47 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:Too bad we didn’t have a poll when the trade was made. Is here still a Bucks fan left who doesn’t like this deal?


It's not about whether they like the deal; it's about whether they would rather have paid Brogdon than Khris with roughly $15m to spare. Nobody can just assume being this good proves that choosing Khris over Brogdon was the right call. They are similar players in many respects, and the Bucks didn't exactly struggle without Khris last month.

I was never a Brogdon stan at all, and I always thought he was the least important of the Bucks' group of free agents when it comes to total wins added. But that margin was fairly thin, and I would still rather have Brogdon's contract on the books.

Khris has been the best version of himself we've seen since spring 2016 though. I mean he's playing better in a sustainable way that doesn't require some insane hot streak like the 2018 Boston series. I think the minutes reduction, combined with sitting out and watching DDV and Wes frankly outplay the bad version of Khris, has made a difference. All is well that ends well.


Brogdon doesn’t fit in Khris’ role though. Khris can get his shot up quick and from anywhere on the floor. Brogdon just cannot do that. His shooting percentage has gone down considerably since leaving here and becoming an iso player.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1687 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:16 pm

BroncoBuck wrote:
Brogdon doesn’t fit in Khris’ role though. Khris can get his shot up quick and from anywhere on the floor. Brogdon just cannot do that. His shooting percentage has gone down considerably since leaving here and becoming an iso player.


You don't have to tell me how much he benefited from playing with the rest of the Bucks. I was one of the ring-leaders pushing that narrative, along with GoS and a few others. However, I think they would still be roughly this good with him instead of Khris (he does other things a little better than Khris), they'd have someone else like Bogdanovic or Danny Green as well, and they'd have a better payroll structure.

Besides, I frequently said I mainly wanted to keep him instead of Khris for asset management reasons. Imagine him putting up his Pacers numbers, with much better percentages, right now while Bledsoe is out. Changes his trade value dramatically. I love this team, but I would still be more confident in their title chances with a trade that changes 2 or 3 players into one better one.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1688 » by smauss » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:29 pm

A bad deal tends to have a negative ripple effect in the future, and we have one (IMHO). BTW, great posts coolhandluke121, I couldn't agree more.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1689 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:20 pm

stop using the theory we could have signed bojan in place of middleton to justify keeping brogdon. we have no idea if that was even possible and its not like theres this other list of guys that makes any sense AT ALL so its just a lazy exercise. any fanbase could always look back and pan any deal they make if they could fantasize about that one deal out there that hypothetically could have made us better months and years after the fact.

quite frankly the fact there is this one guy that maybe hadda coulda woulda maybe marginally made us better.... and just the one not even two..... proves we made the right deal. so knock it off. you guys are better than this
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1690 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:27 pm

if we trade middleton/wes minutes for bojan/brogdon we are..... paying the tax right now and probably better offensively but clearly worse defensively. theres no doubt middleton/Matthews give me more confidence come playoff time. none whatsoever.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1691 » by msiris » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:33 pm

I have said it before. If we do not win the championship Middletons contract will make it more difficult to construct a true championship team.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1692 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:45 pm

msiris wrote:I have said it before. If we do not win the championship Middletons contract will make it more difficult to construct a true championship team.


trading middleton for a combination of worse players will always be there so I cant say I agree with this

the fact that contract virtually insures Giannis resigns may have something to do with our championship hopes as well.

I don't think its intellectually sound to suggest our front office has basically been hitting bombs out of the park for several years now but somehow whiffed doing what Giannis would perceive as our best course of action this past offseason..... of course that being primarily not letting the 2nd best player on the team walk for nothing because we might have been able to sign an old white guy instead

---------------------

horst
hey Giannis... were not going to offer khris just yet because we want to pursue this guy bojan who indy doesn't want anymore. were gonna play phone tag with khris agent for a couple days until we hear something. that ok with you?

Giannis
huh?

horst
we feel like if we bring in a guy even older and more unathletic than khris we have more upside. by upside we don't mean a better player but we feel our salary structure will be better if we focus on bits and pieces and value deals instead of our 2nd allstar last year.
we don't know if bojan will even come here but hes our priority. hes bounced around 3 teams in 2 years and indy doesn't want him anymore so we know hes hanging out there on the market. maybe he'll come. what do you think? and do you think khris will mind being our backup plan?

Giannis
I still don't get it

horst
we could sign middleton and trade Malcolm for 3 picks but instead we just want to see if we can get bojan and keep Malcolm too. let middleton walk instead. we don't want to give out contracts like that

Giannis
but middleton is my bro. why don't you want to pay that good soldier?

horst
bits and pieces Giannis. bits and pieces and value deals. we want to focus on depth in case Malcolm goes out again. you've seen how his body is. we want value guys. middleton would be overpaid with a max contract. retaining him is bad value

Giannis
ok thanks... im gonna call my agent and we''ll get back to you with my list
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1693 » by msiris » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:19 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
msiris wrote:I have said it before. If we do not win the championship Middletons contract will make it more difficult to construct a true championship team.


trading middleton for a combination of worse players will always be there so I cant say I agree with this

the fact that contract virtually insures Giannis resigns may have something to do with our championship hopes as well.

I don't think its intellectually sound to suggest our front office has basically been hitting bombs out of the park for several years now but somehow whiffed doing what Giannis would perceive as our best course of action this past offseason..... of course that being primarily not letting the 2nd best player on the team walk for nothing because we might have been able to sign an old white guy instead
I never said anything about trading him. As well as we are playing there is no need for that. All my thoughts have to do with preseason stuff. I am in the wait and see mode. The regular is one thing and the playoffs are another. Anything other than a NBA finals will be a failure.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1694 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:26 pm

On the TNT NBA Pregame before Thursday's Lakers @ Bucks game, they did a whole segment on how much the Bucks players get along and love playing with and for each other.

In all of the discussion about whether the Bucks would or would not be better with Brogdon, I think this isn't being given enough attention. All of our current players know their role and embrace filling those roles. Brogdon is a quality human being, but be absolutely did not embrace his role on this team. He wanted to be the #1 or #2 usage and offensive option on a team. He wanted to primarily play PG, not SG. He didn't want to be here. These things matter when it comes to winning a championship.

Isiah Thomas calls this "The Secret Of Basketball" and talked to Bill Simmons about it for Simmons' Book Of Basketball. The Pistons traded a "better" player, Adrian Dantley, for Mark Aguirre.

"Maybe Dantley was a better player than Aguirre, but Aguirre was a better fit for the 1989 Pistons. If they didn’t make that deal, they wouldn’t have won the championship. It was a people trade, not a basketball trade. And that’s what Isiah learned while following those Lakers and Celtics teams around: it wasn’t about basketball. Those teams were loaded with talented players, yes, but that’s not the only reason they won. They won because they liked each other, knew their roles, ignored statistics, and valued winning over everything else."
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1695 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:34 pm

I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1696 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:37 pm

LUKE23 wrote:2018-19:

O Rating: 113.8 (4th)
D Rating: 105.2 (1st)
Net Rating: +8.6 (1st)
SRS: 8.04 (1st)

2019-20:

O Rating: 112.3 (3rd)
D Rating: 103.7 (8th)
Net Rating: +8.6 (3rd)
SRS: 10.25 (1st)

I'd say pretty comparable in terms of production so far. In terms of SRS, which I value highly, they are actually better than last year, although I do expect that number to drop some. We are actually playing slightly better D so far this year than last.


Update:
2019-20:

O Rating: 114.5 (2nd)
D Rating: 101.7 (1st)
Net Rating: +12.8 (1st)
SRS: 12.69 (1st)




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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1697 » by MickeyDavis » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:49 pm

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:On the TNT NBA Pregame before Thursday's Lakers @ Bucks game, they did a whole segment on how much the Bucks players get along and love playing with and for each other.

In all of the discussion about whether the Bucks would or would not be better with Brogdon, I think this isn't being given enough attention. All of our current players know their role and embrace filling those roles. Brogdon is a quality human being, but be absolutely did not embrace his role on this team. He wanted to be the #1 or #2 usage and offensive option on a team. He wanted to primarily play PG, not SG. He didn't want to be here. These things matter when it comes to winning a championship.

Isiah Thomas calls this "The Secret Of Basketball" and talked to Bill Simmons about it for Simmons' Book Of Basketball. The Pistons traded a "better" player, Adrian Dantley, for Mark Aguirre.

"Maybe Dantley was a better player than Aguirre, but Aguirre was a better fit for the 1989 Pistons. If they didn’t make that deal, they wouldn’t have won the championship. It was a people trade, not a basketball trade. And that’s what Isiah learned while following those Lakers and Celtics teams around: it wasn’t about basketball. Those teams were loaded with talented players, yes, but that’s not the only reason they won. They won because they liked each other, knew their roles, ignored statistics, and valued winning over everything else."

THIS.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1698 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:54 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:stop using the theory we could have signed bojan in place of middleton to justify keeping brogdon. we have no idea if that was even possible and its not like theres this other list of guys that makes any sense AT ALL so its just a lazy exercise. . so knock it off. you guys are better than this


Dude, I'm sorry but you're the one who needs to knock it off. You're out of control with how adamant you get about this stuff. Several people have made good points about chemistry and brogdons injuries and his role, but this post is total trash. Plenty of players wanted to sign with the Bucks, even though surely many other teams in the league wanted them at a similar price (or even more money). It's no longer credible to act like nobody wants to play for the Bucks. They had the cap space to match or beat offers for several good free agents and you're the one who is being lazy af in your analysis by claiming you can dismiss that.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1699 » by humanrefutation » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:56 pm

Well, we can now put all of that BS about Malcolm not wanting to be here to rest. He said it himself. He wanted to return but we weren't willing to pay him what the Pacers offered. Fair enough.

We'll see at the end of the season whether LED's decision to not pay Malcolm is either a failure of legacy-altering proportions or the prescient move of LED+FO that knew it could spend that money more efficiently.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1700 » by Chuck Diesel » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:06 pm

Yeah, still think any notion Malcolm would’ve created chemistry problems that prohibited the Bucks from winning the title is poppycock.

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