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Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1701 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:10 pm

It's not even that big of a deal, as Khris is good too but both of them have some serious downside for the money they got. I'm not even that adamant about it, but people acting like the fact that the Bucks are this good right now proves them right and that the chemistry is such a delicate balance get on my nerves. They had good chemistry and a great regular season last year too, and that was without RoLo, Wes, and Korver, and with like 60-70 combined games from DDV and Hill or something?
Wut we've got here is... faaailure... to communakate.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1702 » by Isocleas2 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:11 pm

humanrefutation wrote:Well, we can now put all of that BS about Malcolm not wanting to be here to rest. He said it himself. He wanted to return but we weren't willing to pay him what the Pacers offered. Fair enough.

We'll see at the end of the season whether LED's decision to not pay Malcolm is either a failure of legacy-altering proportions or the prescient move of LED+FO that knew it could spend that money more efficiently.


I read Brogdons quotes a little differently, namely these quotes:

"That's exactly what it is. It's about a new opportunity, a new challenge," Brogdon said of his desire for a bigger role. "Sort of being a leader of a team now is a totally different role, it's a way bigger role for me, but it's something I've been molded into and something I've prepared myself to do over the past three years.

"This is, I think, something that every respected NBA player wants. They want a team that they can call theirs, they want a team that they can still win at a high level, but they have the ball more in their hands and they can control more of the game."

A way bigger role, a team a player can call their own, ball more in their hands to control the game. It sounds to me like he wanted a bigger role than being in Giannis's shadow would have allowed him.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1703 » by Oscartfb » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:17 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.


This is where I'm at too. I'm fine with Middleton and what he brings night in and night out. I don't trust Bled.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1704 » by soxperry » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:47 pm

Brogdon's quote, to me, was as much about his role on the team as it was about money.

Brogdon may not have become an "issue" in the locker room but if he sees himself as a certain kind of player with a major role in the offense, we were never going to get his absolute best. There's something to be said for having an entire team of guys that has bought in. The person who quoted Bill Simmons, i think, is spot on here.

It's really hard to argue with the results at this point. We are a significantly better regular season team this year with the additions of Matthews, Korver, and Robin while retaining Hill and providing DDV more minutes than he would get if Brogdon stayed.

This team is a machine.. The national media has no choice but to let go of the narrative they were all pushing for the last three months, which is always some form of, "The Bucks are a very good team but losing Brogdon really hurts them." It's the same thing that they pushed in the playoffs and then we steamrolled our first two opponents without Brogdon and lost when he came back. Our success in the playoffs will come down to Giannis and coaching. It's really as simple as that.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1705 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:49 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1706 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:49 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:stop using the theory we could have signed bojan in place of middleton to justify keeping brogdon. we have no idea if that was even possible and its not like theres this other list of guys that makes any sense AT ALL so its just a lazy exercise. . so knock it off. you guys are better than this


Dude, I'm sorry but you're the one who needs to knock it off. You're out of control with how adamant you get about this stuff. Several people have made good points about chemistry and brogdons injuries and his role, but this post is total trash. Plenty of players wanted to sign with the Bucks, even though surely many other teams in the league wanted them at a similar price (or even more money). It's no longer credible to act like nobody wants to play for the Bucks. They had the cap space to match or beat offers for several good free agents and you're the one who is being lazy af in your analysis by claiming you can dismiss that.


excuse me but im not the one grinding the ax on how our 13 deep load managing like crazy 27-4 team somehow managed to **** up the offseason by building around the wrong core.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1707 » by soxperry » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:52 pm

Oscartfb wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.


This is where I'm at too. I'm fine with Middleton and what he brings night in and night out. I don't trust Bled.


neither do I, and it's been extremely obvious that having 4 good shooters around Giannis is signficantly better for our offense than having Giannis, Bled, and 3 shooters. Defensively, there have definitely been times that I missed Bled (like watching Brogdon blow by his man and having to send two guys to defend him at the rim only to watch him kick out to a wide open shooter), but overall the results speak for themselves.

We have a very difficult decision. Bled loves it here, the team loves Bled. Do we say, "Okay, I love this team, I love these players and how well they get along, this is a family, let's see how far we can get with these guys"? Or are we going to be ruthless in our decision making and do everything in our power to win a title? To me, if it's the latter, Bledsoe isn't here come playoffs, but I'm okay if we decide to roll with who we got and I think Giannis is too. I dont think he looks at Bled as a liability.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1708 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:53 pm

soxperry wrote:Brogdon's quote, to me, was as much about his role on the team as it was about money.


as has been like the last 100 quotes on the topic from him, his teammates, reporters... that's EXACTLY why he left.....but that wont stop his homies from declaring it wasn't about money.....

from the same article and the same discussion about value....

Brogdon said of his desire for a bigger role. "Sort of being a leader of a team now is a totally different role, it's a way bigger role for me, but it's something I've been molded into and something I've prepared myself to do over the past three years.
"This is, I think, something that every respected NBA player wants. They want a team that they can call theirs, they want a team that they can still win at a high level, but they have the ball more in their hands and they can control more of the game."


my ass it was all about his desire for more money. him and Jabari have made it VERY clear about what their priorities are :roll:
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1709 » by soxperry » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:54 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


And when you say room, we all have to remember the post someone made a while back that showed how many tens of millions of dollars that Brogdon was going to cost us in terms of luxury and repeater tax. It was astronomical and certainly not worth it for anything less than an ideal #2 superstar.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1710 » by Ayt » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:59 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


There have been multiple threads on the general board about how bad it was to let Brogdon go, and most of the dummies still haven't figured this out. They also don't realize how important Hill is to the team, how well Wes and DDV have done in replacing Brogdon, and how important Rolo could be in the playoffs.

I don't care about the owners avoiding the luxury tax. I like the end result from a team building perspective.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1711 » by DavidDunn21 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:08 pm

I have little to add to the fine points already made here, so to make a tangential point...who says Khris is Giannis' friend? Has anyone observed that at all? It's unnecessary, but what leads anyone to think that?

It was odd at the time and it's odd now that the hedge fund sharks didn't get a more appropriate deal done for Middleton during the season when his value was low. He was pretty bad for 2/3 of last year and yet they pushed for him to be an All Star over Bled and generally assisted with his spin. Later, they massively overpaid for him, blowing up the Spursy model.

So imo Malcolm (who had made zero money in the league) saw the writing on the wall. He was an equal contributor to Brook, Khris and Eric especially in big games last year, and he WASN'T BEING VALUED.

But something fundamentally changed in national perception when Malcolm appeared on the TNT set after Game 2 vs. the Raptors. He was well spoken and handsome and passionate about building clean water wells in Africa. Barkley pledged 45 grand on the spot.

From that point on, the national media was always gonna be on Malcolm's side. We can argue who did or didn't do what in the ECF, but ultimately the Bucks are at the big boy table now and Giannis catches all the credit/blame anyway.

The story of fighting for money and shots and playing time is baked into the history of the NBA. This will always take place. I certainly think that Malcolm (wisely) played a little more selfishly last year to maximize his money. My assertion is that things were mismanaged from the top down.

But, we're 27-4, so...

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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1712 » by sidney lanier » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:11 pm

Ayt wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


There have been multiple threads on the general board about how bad it was to let Brogdon go, and most of the dummies still haven't figured this out. They also don't realize how important Hill is to the team, how well Wes and DDV have done in replacing Brogdon, and how important Rolo could be in the playoffs.

I don't care about the owners avoiding the luxury tax. I like the end result from a team building perspective.


So do I. Maybe it's the Ginobili or the Pop influence, but Hill has exceeded expectations in part because he appears not to have any for himself beyond helping the team in whatever role he is called upon to play.

I'm not so naïve to think that pro athletes don't have egos, but we seem to be blessed with many who understand the value of setting aside personal goals for the greater good. "I want to be a bigger part of the offense"-type goals, such as Brogdon seemed to have, are inherently self-limiting, I think. To paraphrase Baby Jesus (after he grew up), you have to lose your goals to find them.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1713 » by Bernman » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:19 pm

All positive spin on the advantages of playing in Indiana after the Bucks decided not to match should be taken w/ a grain of salt. He's gotta make the best of the situation and be diplomatic. Most players are that way, and they're not even the president. He didn't cause problems last year and he wouldn't have this year when through the winning while getting paid the same as Indy.

Reactions on the deal should be reserved until we get through the playoffs and Bled is one of the reasons why the team won. Because Brogdon would have likely been and that's when it matters. That was always the primary criteria. Bled was the Bucks' 2nd best player last regular season. We weren't going to drop-off majorly period, and the team was going to arguably be better if Giannis improved his shot as he has and DiVo was available. DiVo would have played the same role w/ Brogdon here and actually complemented him' better. Hill was the x-factor, what he ends up doing in the playoffs, and if he would have come back here on a lower rate. They could have just capped Middleton at 135 or so and said take it or leave it. Went from there. Give themselves more flexibility and would have improved the outlook long-term too.

The concerns about losing Brogdon for the playoffs go away if they move Bled at the deadline for another core player who can shoot and is more reliable in the postseason like Holiday. And they could use the 1st that they wouldn't have if not for the Brogdon deal to make it happen. Otherwise we need to have a wait and see approach if Bled shows up. If not we're going to be regretting the deal. If he does then as a bonus we got a little more salary flexibility and a lower 1st as a bonus. Then it's a good deal.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1714 » by Ayt » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:22 pm

sidney lanier wrote:
Ayt wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


There have been multiple threads on the general board about how bad it was to let Brogdon go, and most of the dummies still haven't figured this out. They also don't realize how important Hill is to the team, how well Wes and DDV have done in replacing Brogdon, and how important Rolo could be in the playoffs.

I don't care about the owners avoiding the luxury tax. I like the end result from a team building perspective.


So do I. Maybe it's the Ginobili or the Pop influence, but Hill has exceeded expectations in part because he appears not to have any for himself beyond helping the team in whatever role he is called upon to play.

I'm not so naïve to think that pro athletes don't have egos, but we seem to be blessed with many who understand the value of setting aside personal goals for the greater good. "I want to be a bigger part of the offense"-type goals, such as Brogdon seemed to have, are inherently self-limiting, I think. To paraphrase Baby Jesus (after he grew up), you have to lose your goals to find them.


Hill is definitely one of those players whose impact goes well beyond the numbers. I've said it before, but he can play 30 minutes and have an 8-4-2 line and you can still come away thinking he had a major positive impact on the game. He's also an outstanding counterpart to the mercurial Bledsoe in the playoffs with his calm demeanor and high basketball IQ. The Bucks would be much, much worse off if they had Brogdon but didn't have Hill, Robin, and Wes on the roster.

As well as Brogdon has played for Indy, the Bucks don't run a pick and roll heavy offense where he can dominate the ball like they do and he's vastly inferior defensively at the PG spot than both Bledsoe (obviously) and Hill. I'd say he's clearly the worst defensively out of all of Bled, Hill, Wes, and Dante at either guard spot.

I was a big Brogdon fan and defended him a ton last year, but trading him was the right move.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1715 » by smauss » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:58 pm

I agree and have stated so many times, that Hill was a guy we HAD to keep, and this year he has only increased my desire to keep him. I know this is a Brogdan thread but I'm not all that concerned with his departure. I get all the chemistry stuff, and consider chemistry extremely important, especially in a small market team, but we aren't privy to what went on in that regard and it's all theory, and speculation that I don't get involved with. Honestly, there was as good a chance that they saw the potential in DDV, and thought DDV could pick up those minutes, which I would have to agree with, especially at the cost. I'm not a fan of the Midds contract, so I apologize for expressing it in this thread, but unless he puts in BIG work and elevates his overall game, I will continue to not be a fan of that contract.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1716 » by RogerMurdock » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:16 pm

Guys, we just beat Indiana and Malcolm Brogdon last night.

WE **** WON THE TRADE. WE WON IT. HOLY **** WE WON IT.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1717 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:27 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:Guys, we just beat Indiana and Malcolm Brogdon last night.

WE **** WON THE TRADE. WE WON IT. HOLY **** WE WON IT.


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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1718 » by emunney » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:30 pm

Curious to know how much better you guys think we'd be with Brogdon.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1719 » by Bucksfan28 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:36 pm

emunney wrote:Curious to know how much better you guys think we'd be with Brogdon.


Tough to speculate that we could somehow be better than this. If you wanted to say a roster with Brogdon would be more talented on paper then fine, but that's such a moot point.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1720 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:50 pm

smauss wrote:I will continue to not be a fan of that contract.

Nobody likes the contract. But we don't know how Giannis would have reacted if Khris was not signed. After the supermax we're deep in the tax for a long time, so it doesn't matter that much.

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