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Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE)

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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1721 » by TD75 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:57 pm

emunney wrote:Curious to know how much better you guys think we'd be with Brogdon.

In the regular season this team has proven that it does not depend on any single player to be great (except Giannis and maybe - I speculate - Brook due to his importance in the scheme).

The question is how Brogdon's absence will affect the Bucks in the playoffs. It is of course a hypothetical since you can never know for sure, but it is a valid question.

Food for thought related to this question.
- Did the Bucks miss Brogdon in last year's playoffs as much as people think? Did Brogdon coming back in the last games in the Celtics series make such a big difference in the way Bucks played?

My speculation is that Brogdon (while a very good player when evaluated without the context of a team), is not the missing piece for the Bucks roster to win a championship this year. If they fix some issues with adaptability in the playoffs, the Bucks have a very good chance to win it all as they are currently. If they don't, Malcolm will not be the missing piece to gift the Bucks a championship either way. So, does not having Brogdon really matter in any significant way in the end?

(I am not even considering scenarios where you retain Brogdon and lose other players from the rotation, which is more complicated. For example, not having Hill in this roster would have been a disaster, compared to not having Brogdon.)
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1722 » by TroyD92 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:59 pm

TD75 wrote:
emunney wrote:Curious to know how much better you guys think we'd be with Brogdon.

In the regular season this team has proven that it does not depend on any single player to be great (except Giannis and maybe - I speculate - Brook due to his importance in the scheme).

The question is how Brogdon's absence will affect the Bucks in the playoffs. It is of course a hypothetical since you can never know for sure, but it is a valid question.

Food for thought related to this question.
- Did the Bucks miss Brogdon in last year's playoffs as much as people think? Did Brogdon coming back in the last games in the Celtics series make such a big difference in the way Bucks played?

My speculation is that Brogdon (while a very good player when evaluated without the context of a team), is not the missing piece for the Bucks roster to win a championship this year. If they fix some issues with adaptability in the playoffs, the Bucks have a very good chance to win it all as they are currently. If they don't, Malcolm will not be the missing piece to gift the Bucks a championship either way. So, does not having Brogdon really matter in any significant way in the end?

(I am not even considering scenarios where you retain Brogdon and lose other players from the rotation, which is more complicated. For example, not having Hill in this roster would have been a disaster, compared to not having Brogdon.)


Well said.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1723 » by smauss » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:14 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
smauss wrote:I will continue to not be a fan of that contract.

Nobody likes the contract. But we don't know how Giannis would have reacted if Khris was not signed. After the supermax we're deep in the tax for a long time, so it doesn't matter that much.


We don't know, maybe he would have jumped for joy, or maybe he would have pouted like a child - I or you don't know. However, one thing I know: Giannis has expressed numerous times that he wants to win a championship. Now I can't remember him ever making Midds part of that statement. I believe that if he would be upset upon Midds departure (which BTW, he would get paid extremely well by someone) if it was explained to him that we are much more unlikely to put together a championship team with this contract to Midds I think he'd be ok with it.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1724 » by kid idioteque » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:14 pm

Chuck Diesel wrote:Yeah, still think any notion Malcolm would’ve created chemistry problems that prohibited the Bucks from winning the title is poppycock.


Do you not see the god-tier chemistry we have this year? These guys ADORE each other. Having a guy in the locker room who didn't want to be here certainly would've detracted from that.

Everyone who said the team made up the "Martin doesn't want to be here" storyline to save face needs own their stupidity. It's time.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1725 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:19 pm

Ayt wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


There have been multiple threads on the general board about how bad it was to let Brogdon go, and most of the dummies still haven't figured this out. They also don't realize how important Hill is to the team, how well Wes and DDV have done in replacing Brogdon, and how important Rolo could be in the playoffs.

I don't care about the owners avoiding the luxury tax. I like the end result from a team building perspective.


Why are you bringing up Wes, DDV, and Hill? What does that have to do with arguing the merits of Brogdon vs. Khris? I know damn well how good those guys are.

If only we had any data about whether they could replace Khris instead of Brgodon, or even replace both of them. Hmmmm....
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1726 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:25 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


yeah that was the end result but they chose Bledsoe over Brogdon. Malcom wanted to play PG, Bucks signed Bledsoe to play PG, Brogdon didn't want to stick around anymore and that led to the above.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1727 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:31 pm

smauss wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:
smauss wrote:I will continue to not be a fan of that contract.

Nobody likes the contract. But we don't know how Giannis would have reacted if Khris was not signed. After the supermax we're deep in the tax for a long time, so it doesn't matter that much.


We don't know, maybe he would have jumped for joy, or maybe he would have pouted like a child - I or you don't know. However, one thing I know: Giannis has expressed numerous times that he wants to win a championship. Now I can't remember him ever making Midds part of that statement. I believe that if he would be upset upon Midds departure (which BTW, he would get paid extremely well by someone) if it was explained to him that we are much more unlikely to put together a championship team with this contract to Midds I think he'd be ok with it.

We know Giannis is happy now. He looks very happy. He would not be this happy if the Bucks didn't sign Khris and now have only the 4th best record in the East.
Left or right, it's a lot of ifs, but Horst had to calculate the risk. I think he did well.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1728 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:34 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
Ayt wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


There have been multiple threads on the general board about how bad it was to let Brogdon go, and most of the dummies still haven't figured this out. They also don't realize how important Hill is to the team, how well Wes and DDV have done in replacing Brogdon, and how important Rolo could be in the playoffs.

I don't care about the owners avoiding the luxury tax. I like the end result from a team building perspective.


Why are you bringing up Wes, DDV, and Hill? What does that have to do with arguing the merits of Brogdon vs. Khris? I know damn well how good those guys are.

If only we had any data about whether they could replace Khris instead of Brgodon, or even replace both of them. Hmmmm....


im not trying to argue every little point but it to me wes, ddv, hill and brogdon all play a different position than khris. that's before we even discuss the notion that brogdons primary concern moving forward was whether he got to be the starting pg or not.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1729 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:35 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:I still don't think it was Middleton over Brogdon. It was Bledsoe over Brogdon.

It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


yeah that was the end result but they chose Bledsoe over Brogdon. Malcom wanted to play PG, Bucks signed Bledsoe to play PG, Brogdon didn't want to stick around anymore and that led to the above.

Nope. Brogdon was never able to defend like Bledsoe can. Brogdon was the easiest to replace (as we know now) and the most expensive to keep.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1730 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:36 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:It was Hill (+ picks + room for Wes & RoLo) over Bronson


yeah that was the end result but they chose Bledsoe over Brogdon. Malcom wanted to play PG, Bucks signed Bledsoe to play PG, Brogdon didn't want to stick around anymore and that led to the above.

Nope. Brogdon was never able to defend like Bledsoe can. Brogdon was the easiest to replace (as we know now) and the most expensive to keep.


Right, as I said....Bledsoe over Brogdon.




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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1731 » by DutchManDanFan » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:43 pm

HaroldinGMinor wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:Nope. Brogdon was never able to defend like Bledsoe can. Brogdon was the easiest to replace (as we know now) and the most expensive to keep.

Right, as I said....Bledsoe over Brogdon.

Nope. Hill, Wes and DDV (and picks) over Brogdon.

Brogdon could never replace Bledsoe. Hill (as 2nd pg) and Wes and DDV are replacements for Brogdon.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1732 » by HaroldinGMinor » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:46 pm

DutchManDanFan wrote:
HaroldinGMinor wrote:
DutchManDanFan wrote:Nope. Brogdon was never able to defend like Bledsoe can. Brogdon was the easiest to replace (as we know now) and the most expensive to keep.

Right, as I said....Bledsoe over Brogdon.

Nope. Hill, Wes and DDV (and picks) over Brogdon.

Brogdon could never replace Bledsoe. Hill (as 2nd pg) and Wes and DDV are replacements for Brogdon.


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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1733 » by MickeyDavis » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:47 pm

The more talent you have the more tough choices you have to make. It's natural to do a woulda/coulda/shoulda exercise. To a point. In the meantime I'm enjoying the hell out of our 27-4 team. Can you do both? Sure. But I'd rather focus on reality than the hypothetical. (shrug)
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1734 » by DavidDunn21 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:58 pm

Giannis looks happy this year.
Giannis looked happy last year.

The chemistry seems off the charts!
All that goofy WWE stuff that Malcolm wouldn't have done? Khris doesn't do it either.

There's really no visual evidence that Giannis and Khris are pals, and they both admit they used to hate each other. This isn't a banana boat situation.

We are much better this year because of continuity, the emergence of Donte Rodman, the unsustainable shooting of George Hill and Giannis 3 point stroke. All questions regarding the playoffs remain to be seen

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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1735 » by Chuck Diesel » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:00 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:The more talent you have the more tough choices you have to make. It's natural to do a woulda/coulda/shoulda exercise. To a point. In the meantime I'm enjoying the hell out of our 27-4 team. Can you do both? Sure. But I'd rather focus on reality than the hypothetical. (shrug)


Agreed. But as long as we’re continuing to talk about it, it’s also a hypothetical exorcise to assume/proclaim that if Brogdon were back he’d be some kind of cancer whose miserable vibes would detract from winning.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1736 » by Plossum » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:12 pm

If DDV and Wes can keep it up it neutralises the Brogs loss. But if they wet the bed come playoffs we’re really going to notice it.
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1737 » by blazza18 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:15 pm

emunney wrote:Curious to know how much better you guys think we'd be with Brogdon.


Hard to be better but I think we'd be more stable having another ball handler/play maker in the rotation come playoff time.

For whatever reason it was never going to happen with us but how much better/worse are we if Midds and Brogdon's usage is closer than it was?
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1738 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:24 pm

Plossum wrote:If DDV and Wes can keep it up it neutralises the Brogs loss. But if they wet the bed come playoffs we’re really going to notice it.


brogdon has been a poor playoff performer generally. i don't understand why if the new guys wet the bed he'd be a fix. i think we saw yesterday what good defenses can do to him
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1739 » by Plossum » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:35 pm

He was 13/5/3.5 last year at 55 TS% as like our fourth/fifth option. What more did you expect?
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Re: Woj: Malcolm Brogdon S&T to Pacers for Picks (NO TPE) 

Post#1740 » by blazza18 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:46 pm

Plossum wrote:He was 13/5/3.5 last year at 55 TS% as like our fourth/fifth option. What more did you expect?


He and Khris had the opposite ECF. One had one bad game. One had one good game.
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