Wisconsin Badgers Thread/March Madness

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm sure I'm the ring leader of the group that is being talked about "accepting criticism." If you go back and read stuff from early this season, 2018, and when they fall apart late last year...the takes are pretty spicy. I am sure it doesn't come off this way but I am always willing to grant recruiting issues or the actual ceiling of the team.

Sometimes it's frustrating because there will be a discussion about Ford sucking or Trice struggling and literally as we're watching it these guys are going from mid-major talent to solid or good B10 player. It's hard to not get in on that when people forget that it took Jordan Taylor or Hughes or Kaminsky or Leuer quite some time to develop.

[humanrefutation]

That's some good paper tiger BS right there.

Legitimate Gard criticism is massively accepted... It's the ridiculous nonsense like "Potter saved Gard's ass" that's ridiculed.

If that's all that's been ridiculed, then HR and myself would not be involved in this conversation.

As stated, legitimate criticism is massively accepted.

Do you have a specific situation for when it wasn't?

I really don't want to reopen old arguments that have since been moved on from, but there have definitely been times here where even tepid criticisms of Gard have been met with over-the-top kinds of reactions from some posters. So, no, it's not fair to say that it's only the "Potter saved Gard's ass!" stuff that gets criticism. If that was the case, I'd have hours of my life back from some of the mind-numbing back-and-forths I've had on here.

But I know part of it is heat-of-the-moment, too.

[4xBuck]

If that's all that's been ridiculed, then HR and myself would not be involved in this conversation.

As stated, legitimate criticism is massively accepted.

Do you have a specific situation for when it wasn't?

I really don't want to reopen old arguments that have since been moved on from, but there have definitely been times here where even tepid criticisms of Gard have been met with over-the-top kinds of reactions from some posters.

No.

For the 3rd and final time, legitimate criticism is massively accepted.

[4xBuck]

It's hard to not get in on that when people forget that it took Jordan Taylor or Hughes or Kaminsky or Leuer quite some time to develop.

The Junior jump.

[humanrefutation]

As stated, legitimate criticism is massively accepted.

Do you have a specific situation for when it wasn't?

I really don't want to reopen old arguments that have since been moved on from, but there have definitely been times here where even tepid criticisms of Gard have been met with over-the-top kinds of reactions from some posters.

No.

For the 3rd and final time, legitimate criticism is massively accepted.

That's definitely not true in all cases, as has been explained to you by the people actually involved in those conversations.

But your silly obstinance is actually proving my point.

[DingleJerry]

Even as one on the Gard side here. And even spite of this good run, I'm still skeptical. I've said the whole time, get through these blah years and get to the new recruits and see what happens, assess then. We need to see some good results/years in there and not just more blah years like last and this. Well, I guess this year quickly goes from blah to good if they steal this conf title, but just saying as of now as they could easily lose Sunday. We still have to see that happen and there's a good chance his style/system etc will just consistently lead to middling teams like this, but without Bo's expertise those 'boom' years mixed in might not happen. Basically, still a lot to prove.

And if what I said does happen that's another discussion later on, do we just accept that being OK and keep crossing fingers that some boom years happen or try to shake it up. That's a fair talk. I think I stil lean towards not taking the risk, heck, it took Bo forever to get over the hump too. Don't forget it was a running joke nationally for years how UW will not live up to their record in the tourney and how Bo can't make a FF, you know, until he did. Actually not dissimilar to stupid takes on Bucks/Gard right now.

Kerb, and for the common Bo thing that discussion was purely based on records, not kenpom. Low 20 wins and low double digit L season happen several times under Bo. it happened, it's a fact. If I recall it was 4 or 5 of Bo's 15ish season would fall in that area more or less the same as last year and this. But that goes to what I said on Gard, is he good enough to do better than the blah years of Bo, that's yet to be seen.

[buckboy]

Gard supporters may of course gloat as much as they wish, as you're in position to at this point, but being unable to accept that there was legitimate reason to offer criticism and question of Gard in prior season, and with what we saw through the first part of this season, is as eyeroll-worthy as ever. Just like how it doesn't change what was an average/typical/whatever-synonym-you-want-to-use season looked like under Bo Ryan. My lord, that conversation.

You can consider it stubborn if you want, but I certainly stand by my stance from the past two-to-three seasons - which has mostly been skepticism and discontent. There certainly is a spectrum of support and vitriol, so I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine at least HR and midranger are in the same boat.

The parallels to the Khris Middleton situation are really interesting. Again, I don't change a single one of my viewpoints from the past four years on Middleton, but that doesn't change that I'm remarkably happy that he's now an All-NBA-worthy player and that the team is playing so well with him. It's just that the current state doesn't change the past state, either.

I've never advocated for Gard's firing on here, but there's no doubt that I've been critical of him. I don't think my criticisms were unwarranted when I gave them.

That being said, though, I don't begrudge any Gard supporter for feeling vindicated with their recent run - as I don't begrudge the Middleton supporters - there's absolutely something about a foxhole mentality when you're supporting a coach/player/team that's facing a ton of scrutiny. The Gard contingent on here has dealt with some pile-ons from time-to-time (though I think some of those pile-ons were self-inflicted), so of course, some of them are going to want to be like "See! Told you so!" And that's fine with me. I'd gladly accept that gloating if the trade off means the team is playing well.

I think the key in any of these discussions - one I've learned over the years - is to be open-minded enough that you're willing to credit change as change takes place. I was a strong skeptic of that Middleton contract, but that doesn't mean I don't take absolute joy in watching him become a great player. I was (and still remain to a lesser degree) a skeptic of Gard, but that doesn't mean I won't give him credit for the way this team has played over the recent weeks. As the facts change, my opinions change to reflect them. And in both Gard and Middleton's cases, consistent progress will wane any remaining skepticism.

I think it should be obvious that anyone would rather see Gard succeed than fail because we're all Badger fans and we want the team to be good. So when they're good, I'm happy and have consistently afforded them credit for it. And when they're not playing well, I'm not going to stop critiquing them for it. I think that's fair.

I was accused of being a Gard nut hugger in the last thread which I never was. I merely said Gard wasn't getting fired this season regardless of the results, which he wasn't.

Having said that I am now a Gard nut hugger. As good of a coaching job as I've seen at Wisconsin in any sport this year.

Point is, I agree that opinions shift based on results. Based on the caliber of recruits and the coaching acumen, i personally went from 75% in to 100% in the last 4 months.

[Kerb Hohl]

It's going to always be the same back-and-forth until (hopefully) Gard reaches late-career Bo Ryan status of stability.

Sometimes there are posters that made some preposterous statement 3 weeks earlier about firing him after one bad possession late in a game to return and say, "nice game, looking good, but college basketball is down this year" or, "sloppy game" (after a low-scoring win). Maybe I've overreacted to those. Sometimes hard to tell the intent in some cases.

And you know the same posters will scatter to their respective corners after this season inevitably ends on a poor shooting performance in R1 or R2 of the tournament. Hell, as of yesterday, I was just hoping for one more win to make it. Even I'm getting my hopes up now.

[midranger]

Ahhh... whatever. At least, I never said anything as spicy as “we’re missing the NIT this year.”

That’s some spicy stuff.

[DingleJerry]

Yea it's really not crazy for them to make a deep run this year. I think you posted a rating that had us in the teens lately. Right now, if one had to rank teams I don't see how anyone could put them out of the top 20. What 2-4 seed wants to see these guys in round 2? And it's not just been sloppy ugly wins, they've actually looked legit good. That said, with how rough they've generally been at shooting outside of the KC (though better lately of course) they could also easily lay an egg 1st game of both tourneys and this good run ends in a big thud. I've changed my goals now to making the Sweet 16, anything after is gravy. Lose in round 2 is fine whatever onto next year, lose in round 1 is another roll your eyes moment like we've had tons of the last year or so leading to this overall discussion.

I think I saw they're around 90-1 to win the title. I know Iowa does "make the FF odds" too but I didn't look a week or so back when I was there. Curious what that was a week or two back vs now. Chances are it's dropped now and not worth it but was probably a juicy price then.

[Kerb Hohl]

Ahhh... whatever. At least, I never said anything as spicy as “we’re missing the NIT this year.”

That’s some spicy stuff.

Hey, we've been friends on here lately. Your opinion of Gard was known and you were a staunch opposition party to me, but regardless, you've gotten on the positive bandwagon as we are ride or die at this point.

Yes, during the Brooklyn games I thought we may miss the NIT if that was directed at me. I briefly fell off the wagon because this was the first time in the 4 years that the team looked actually sloppy. Not just bricking shots or letting the shot clock run down, but just throwing the ball away carelessly. That was the first time I've seen that in 20some years of watching Wisconsin.

I also want something back for the "pass me the drugs" thing about people not seeing improvement, specifically relating to Ford. I think I can get points back on that one after I was mocked for it a few weeks later.

And as much as it sounds like I'm taking this personally and would take a bullet for Gard, it is really just that I've thought he is underrated and a good coach, especially for Wisconsin. If Tony Bennett would want to come home, if Greg Marshall wanted to come here, or one of 3-4 other good hires, I'd cast Gard aside. Though the way things have looked the past few weeks, the list of guys I'd take over him is shrinking.

[DingleJerry]

Ahhh... whatever. At least, I never said anything as spicy as “we’re missing the NIT this year.”

That’s some spicy stuff.

LOL, man reading back on threads from early December to now would likely have some glorious ones. But, just not worth it and it's rude. Everyone gets things wrong on here, no one knows it all or we wouldn't be here to begin with. Plus as said, it's not like the criticism wasn't warranted.

[midranger]

Kerb I just never understood why you thought everyone was bias against Gard. I couldn’t care less who the coach is. I am biased against mind numbing basketball with underwhelming results. We got that for 2.25 years.

Add dramatic improvement and some recruiting classes with exciting upside, and I couldn’t be happier.

I think the “spoiled fan” card is far more fair to play than the “Gard bias” card. UW athletics have definitely spoiled us over the past two decades. Down years are uncommon. A couple in a row is almost unheard of. I think last year’s team suffered (in part, toward the end I was just waiting for it to be over because it was such a chore to watch) from the football team having a **** year too. Definitely magnified the state of the program having that football team flow right into the basketball team.

[Kerb Hohl]

Kerb I just never understood why you thought everyone was bias against Gard. I couldn’t care less who the coach is. I am biased against mind numbing basketball with underwhelming results. We got that for 2.25 years.

Sorry, I deleted the rest of my rant because maybe I misread this a bit, but here is the main point:

The bias is from this: People think that 2017-2018 was some sort of coaching malpractice and somehow still do. Look at the team that was available to him and tell me that 7-11 in the B10 after growing pains early in the year wasn't "not that bad." Not only did people use it as confirmation bias back then but they are still speaking back on it now as, "wow, he really turned it around, didn't he, guys?" No. Nobody was going to succeed with that team.

But it still is brought up in evaluations of recent years.

And while I understand the iffy offense of the offense they were forced to design around Happ the following year (last season), that was still as good as one of Bo's years where he didn't have great offensive weapons. It was also proof for everyone that was calling Gard a dumpster fire for 2017-2018 (the usual suspects did) that he was not a dumpster fire...yet here we are, those people forget and just moved the bar higher or have some other gripe.

[DingleJerry]

I agree that I would never call it a bias, I fully chalked it up to spoiled fan type of thing than anything else, combined with a warped memory of the Bo era due to the last two years.

In a way it kind of came into your post right there. There was one down year, the horrible injury year. Last year was 13-5 in conference. 1st RD L in the tourney sucked but 13-5 in conference is perfectly good. Not awesome or anything. But in the four years it was two sweet 16s which were horrible bad luck from elite 8s, the injury year and 13-5. Yet people were acting like the sky was falling. It's spoiled fan to a T and unrealistic expectations. What Bo did is extremely extremely rare and to expect the next coach to match it and never miss a tourney or have some down years is just not realistic. Even if Gard finishes this year well and the new recruits leads to a good 3-5 year run coming up. It is still very likely that there will be another year or two dip that includes a missed tourney or two. It happens to pretty much everyone except the blue bloods.

[midranger]

Kerb I just never understood why you thought everyone was bias against Gard. I couldn’t care less who the coach is. I am biased against mind numbing basketball with underwhelming results. We got that for 2.25 years.

OK, so you guys are seriously still on the idea that the 2017-2018 season was some sort of coaching malpractice?

No. I’m under the impression that it really sucked, much of which could be rationally explained away. Some, probably falls on recruiting failures Which yes, is ultimately the coaches fault. But then the next year was a complete chore to watch as well, and that almost sucked worse.

[DingleJerry]

If it's down year and a chore to watch a team go 13-5 in the toughest conference I don't know how you survived this long as a Bucks fan, haha. Seriously, this goes right to the spoiled fan type thing and setting realistic expectations. You can't expect them to be as good as a HOFer coach or as good as the blue bloods. Settling in a notch below that say on the Notre Dame type level of the last 15ish years is a perfectly good spot to be.

[Kerb Hohl]

Kerb I just never understood why you thought everyone was bias against Gard. I couldn’t care less who the coach is. I am biased against mind numbing basketball with underwhelming results. We got that for 2.25 years.

OK, so you guys are seriously still on the idea that the 2017-2018 season was some sort of coaching malpractice?

No. I’m under the impression that it really sucked, much of which could be rationally explained away. Some, probably falls on recruiting failures Which yes, is ultimately the coaches fault. But then the next year was a complete chore to watch as well, and that almost sucked worse.

Well, he "inherited" but also was lead recruiter for the mostly dud/non-fit class of AVV/Pritzl/Thomas/Illikainen/Iverson. So whatever is to blame there, I don't really care. I get it, though. His recruiting was suspect briefly.

I think the point was for anyone to see past the issues of 2017-2018 for sure. I can understand the "pain to watch" thing on last year's team, but again, he was forced to build around Ethan Happ and a bunch of role/bit players that were only sophomores.

As of last year, though, some of the bar moving went from, "well, yeah I guess they don't suck anymore and aren't a dumpster fire like I said last year...but these guys aren't improving!" Well, they were sophomores. Some of them improved a bit, but we've kinda seen with this program that that call needs to be made junior year. The bar just kinda keeps moving.

But whatever, we're on the same page here. I hope they finish strong and I'm pretty confident the next wave of recruits will keep this thing going. My only thing I am cringing at is if they do lay an egg in the tournament, it's going to invalidate everything, which is dumb.

[midranger]

If it's down year and a chore to watch a team go 13-5 in the toughest conference I don't know how you survived this long as a Bucks fan, haha. Seriously, this goes right to the spoiled fan type thing and setting realistic expectations. You can't expect them to be as good as a HOFer coach or as good as the blue bloods. Settling in a notch below that say on the Notre Dame type level of the last 15ish years is a perfectly good spot to be.

Probably, but man it was a grind watching last year. Every bit as much as the Bruiser, Evans, Bergeron year. Both of those years, you could just feel the first round out coming by how ugly the team won all year. Definitely spoiled, but I never had any real hope for them.

But like I said, we went from disasterous b-ball season, to crappy football season, to another underwhelming b-ball finish. I think that colors last year’s experience.

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm obviously a massive homer that is bullish on any of the good UW teams but it is much prettier to watch the stronger offensive teams that they have. They don't even have the playmakers this year but a few of those possessions where Trice would hit Potter for the open dunk or they went 4 passes around the perimeter and Ford drained the shot...that is fun to watch. There will unfortunately be a down offensive year or two when some "skilled" guy they get is actually just skilled at layups and setting screens.

Their spacing/ball movement has always been there with Gard but comes down to shooting/playmaking. The Oregon loss last year where they probably lost by 50 (I don't remember the score), I thought they moved the ball around well until they got desperate and started chucking shots. In the first 25-30 minutes of the game they simply bricked open 3 after open 3.