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Bud Replacement Candidates

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

Updated List (Donovan, Craig, Internal added)

Becky Hammon (SAS asst)
0
No votes
Kenny Atkinson
0
No votes
Mike D'Antoni
2
7%
Billy Donovan
5
17%
Jerry Stackhouse
4
13%
Chris Finch (NOP asst)
2
7%
Dan Craig (MIA asst)
0
No votes
Internal Promotion (Darvin Ham or Charles Lee)
2
7%
Retain Bud & Pray He Improves (or brings in someone to run the offense)
14
47%
Other (Specify, lots of worthy candidates)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#121 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:54 pm

djsunyc wrote:
i'm stuck between these two hypothesis:

1. bud has overachieved dramatically with this roster in the regular season but the playoffs is a true indicator of what they really are or

2. bud is able to win big in regular season but lacks the adjustments needed in the postseason


It is both.

Bud has flaws but it’s going to be very hard to find a better coach out there. The guy came into this dysfunctional mess of an organization and brought a system. That system won them 60+ last year and would have won them 60+ this year.

And I understand people looking at the one off, that was the Raptors firing Casey for Nurse. But for the Raptors to make that leap, it took them trading for Kawhi, who went on to have one of the all time great playoff performances in NBA history to knock the Bucks out in six games. And it also took FVV shooting 14-17 on threes.

The Bucks front office botched almost every personnel move from 2014 through the 2018 draft. Bud made the owners look like geniuses the past two years. If the Bucks now want to get from point B to point C, it’s going to take finding a Masai and giving him free reign. Instead we’re going to get Alex and Marc working the trade checker nonstop.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#122 » by emunney » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:05 pm

I'm pretty amused by the idea that these past two years have been marked as "failed miserably". Doesn't leave a ton of rhetorical real estate for the previous decades.

If you're going to knock Bud for failing to reach expectations you have to first acknowledge his outsized role in setting them.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#123 » by Toodles1980 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:48 pm

Why is the NBA so full of re-treads? Let's look at who's left in the East right now: Spoelstra (assistant), Nurse (G-League, assistant), Stevens (college). Spoelstra, Nurse, and Stevens are arguably the best coaches in the NBA. None came from the NBA head coaching ranks. If we move away from Bud, I do not want an NBA re-tread, I want a swing for the fences type hire.

With that in mind I hope they at least look at these three.
- Cheryl Reeve has dominated in the WNBA (career .679 winning %, 4 titles and 6 finals appearances in 10 years), and kept her team competitive even with her 3 time MVP sitting out for 2 straight seasons.
- Becky Hammon, we all know about her.
- Juwan Howard- learned under Spoelstra and Riley should've had a shot in the NBA, but because of going with re-treads, he landed at Michigan.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#124 » by HKPackFan » Tue Sep 8, 2020 10:26 am

I'm with others on the Bud is a top 7-8 coach in the league and it's going to be difficult to find someone better.

Yet the post season flaws are a thing. The lack of adjustments, and the idea that he's a great regular season coach but he's not good in the post season where you play a team for an entire series, is definitely building against him.

Yet the bubble screwed up the evaluation. This team never looked quite right in the bubble. Is that Bud's fault?

Man it would be really painful to watch them get the #1 seed in the east again, and then flame out in the post season exactly the same when a team figures out a plan to beat his team, and he does nothing to adjust.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#125 » by theFireBlanket » Tue Sep 8, 2020 11:08 am

Hopefully game 4, & Giannis injury force Bud's hand to keep adjusting. He's got to learn to adjust quicker. Maybe get some new assistants on the bench who will push him.

Agree with PP. They really should just go after Masai, if not, somebody with a real basketball mind. The meddling can't be a thing if you want to field a championship team.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#126 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 1:51 pm

Still scratching my head as to why anyone would want Jerry Stackhouse. He struck me as a selfish 1 on 1 player back in the day.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#127 » by LuessiT » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:37 pm

Ruzious wrote:Still scratching my head as to why anyone would want Jerry Stackhouse. He struck me as a selfish 1 on 1 player back in the day.


Meaning he has to be a selfish 1 on 1 coach? :roll:

He was assistant coach with the Raptors, then head coach with the 905 and got CotY, switched to college and had a very successful year.

He's a players coach with an emphasis on player development. Obviously not really the pedigree we'd be looking for but he's a good coaching prospect.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#128 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:07 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Still scratching my head as to why anyone would want Jerry Stackhouse. He struck me as a selfish 1 on 1 player back in the day.


Meaning he has to be a selfish 1 on 1 coach? :roll:

He was assistant coach with the Raptors, then head coach with the 905 and got CotY, switched to college and had a very successful year.

He's a players coach with an emphasis on player development. Obviously not really the pedigree we'd be looking for but he's a good coaching prospect.

Yes, meaning that, as a matter of fact. Roll your eyes if that gives you some sense of superiority. If he wasn't a team-first player, I'd doubt he'd make a good head coach. He probably did well at Vandy with the players he had, but Vandy's record with him - 11-20 and dead last out of 14 teams in the SEC. I'd think he'd have to have some winning records there before he'd be considered for an NBA head coaching job.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#129 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:35 pm

Always interesting how reactionary people can be considering how many mediocre coaches (Ty Lue, Doc Rivers, Steve Kerr) win championships in this league. Nick Nurse was a "genius" for telling Kawhi to defend Giannis, and now he's getting his lunch taken by Brad Stevens, who himself has a pretty mediocre playoff resume (34-31 record) and was getting crucified last year for Bud coaching circles around him in the 2nd round.

I'm sure people will twist this into me saying that coaching doesn't matter or that Bud is above criticism. He's not, but the more this team continues to mentally fold in 2nd halves after having big leads, the more I'm convinced that Bud is the one who's been covering the warts of this team and not vice versa. "Grass is greener" mentality has shifted from the roster pre-2018, to the coaching staff because someone/something needs blame assigned. It's a flawed roster, but it's difficult for me to say that anyone should have "seen it coming" considering how close this team was to a championship last season, and especially how they looked pre-COVID.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#130 » by mke_design » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:52 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Always interesting how reactionary people can be considering how many mediocre coaches (Ty Lue, Doc Rivers, Steve Kerr) win championships in this league. Nick Nurse was a "genius" for telling Kawhi to defend Giannis, and now he's getting his lunch taken by Brad Stevens, who himself has a pretty mediocre playoff resume (34-31 record) and was getting crucified last year for Bud coaching circles around him in the 2nd round.

I'm sure people will twist this into me saying that coaching doesn't matter or that Bud is above criticism. He's not, but the more this team continues to mentally fold in 2nd halves after having big leads, the more I'm convinced that Bud is the one who's been covering the warts of this team and not vice versa. "Grass is greener" mentality has shifted from the roster pre-2018, to the coaching staff because someone/something needs blame assigned. It's a flawed roster, but it's difficult for me to say that anyone should have "seen it coming" considering how close this team was to a championship last season, and especially how they looked pre-COVID.


This team just needs more talent tbh. Bud deserves all the criticism that comes his way in regards to rotations, adjustments, etc. Yet, when you are told to make a sand castle out of **** its still a **** castle.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#131 » by Badgerlander » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:08 pm

Stack has a great track record of developing players, something Bud really hasn’t shown. Bud wins regular season games playing defense and scoring in transition. Once things grind to a half court in the playoffs it’s been nothing but ISO’s while guys stand around and watch, it’s sickening basketball. Even the guys on TNT and espn shake their heads at our offense and the lack of sets to get guys easier shots. It’s awful basketball.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#132 » by Chuck Diesel » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:18 pm

Bud has developed a ton of players. He made Kyle **** Korver, Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap into All-Stars. Development is not a weakness.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#133 » by Chuck Diesel » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:25 pm

Honestly think a huge portion of the Bud scorn from non Bucks fans/national media can be attributed to the faces he makes on the sideline. The faces embolden the world to attack the man.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#134 » by Badgerlander » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:59 pm

Chuck Diesel wrote:Bud has developed a ton of players. He made Kyle **** Korver, Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap into All-Stars. Development is not a weakness.


They were all stars based on winning record more than anything they did on their own. Bud never liked Teague and didn’t really want him resigned but they couldnt find anything better and our offer was pretty much market value so they matched it. I’d give Bud credit for Muscala and Scott
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#135 » by Chuck Diesel » Tue Sep 8, 2020 5:20 pm

Badgerlander wrote:
Chuck Diesel wrote:Bud has developed a ton of players. He made Kyle **** Korver, Jeff Teague and Paul Millsap into All-Stars. Development is not a weakness.


They were all stars based on winning record more than anything they did on their own. Bud never liked Teague and didn’t really want him resigned but they couldnt find anything better and our offer was pretty much market value so they matched it. I’d give Bud credit for Muscala and Scott


Nah, they all individually improved a ton in accordance with the winning. Throw Horford in there too. DeMarre Carrol, Tim Hardaway Jr, Kent Bazemore. Bud’s helped a bunch of careers in a big way.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#136 » by LuessiT » Tue Sep 8, 2020 6:11 pm

Ruzious wrote:Yes, meaning that, as a matter of fact. Roll your eyes if that gives you some sense of superiority. If he wasn't a team-first player, I'd doubt he'd make a good head coach. He probably did well at Vandy with the players he had, but Vandy's record with him - 11-20 and dead last out of 14 teams in the SEC. I'd think he'd have to have some winning records there before he'd be considered for an NBA head coaching job.


I'm rolling my eyes because you imply something based on his playing days that couldn't be further from the truth. Stack as a coach praises moving the ball and making the extra pass in mostly a drive and kick offense. There's an interview where he chuckles because he teaches basketball exactly opposite to his playing days. Or just hear from himself:

“People say I may not like pace. I want to get out and run every opportunity we can, but if we don’t have something initially, let’s bring it back out, get into my Carolina secondary offense...I like the [three-pointers]. I like to have weakside action, making sure that guys aren’t stagnant and just standing, making sure that we’re keeping guys occupied...We want [the guys driving the ball] to finish, but if the helps comes, I want that corner filled, and I want that slot filled, so I can sit there blind.”
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#137 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:05 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Yes, meaning that, as a matter of fact. Roll your eyes if that gives you some sense of superiority. If he wasn't a team-first player, I'd doubt he'd make a good head coach. He probably did well at Vandy with the players he had, but Vandy's record with him - 11-20 and dead last out of 14 teams in the SEC. I'd think he'd have to have some winning records there before he'd be considered for an NBA head coaching job.


I'm rolling my eyes because you imply something based on his playing days that couldn't be further from the truth. Stack as a coach praises moving the ball and making the extra pass in mostly a drive and kick offense. There's an interview where he chuckles because he teaches basketball exactly opposite to his playing days. Or just hear from himself:

“People say I may not like pace. I want to get out and run every opportunity we can, but if we don’t have something initially, let’s bring it back out, get into my Carolina secondary offense...I like the [three-pointers]. I like to have weakside action, making sure that guys aren’t stagnant and just standing, making sure that we’re keeping guys occupied...We want [the guys driving the ball] to finish, but if the helps comes, I want that corner filled, and I want that slot filled, so I can sit there blind.”

With all due respect... I'll wait till he's not dead last in the SEC before considering firing Budenholzer so that Jerry Stackhouse can coach the Milwaukee Bucks. Is that fair?
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#138 » by LuessiT » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:21 pm

Ruzious wrote:
LuessiT wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Yes, meaning that, as a matter of fact. Roll your eyes if that gives you some sense of superiority. If he wasn't a team-first player, I'd doubt he'd make a good head coach. He probably did well at Vandy with the players he had, but Vandy's record with him - 11-20 and dead last out of 14 teams in the SEC. I'd think he'd have to have some winning records there before he'd be considered for an NBA head coaching job.


I'm rolling my eyes because you imply something based on his playing days that couldn't be further from the truth. Stack as a coach praises moving the ball and making the extra pass in mostly a drive and kick offense. There's an interview where he chuckles because he teaches basketball exactly opposite to his playing days. Or just hear from himself:

“People say I may not like pace. I want to get out and run every opportunity we can, but if we don’t have something initially, let’s bring it back out, get into my Carolina secondary offense...I like the [three-pointers]. I like to have weakside action, making sure that guys aren’t stagnant and just standing, making sure that we’re keeping guys occupied...We want [the guys driving the ball] to finish, but if the helps comes, I want that corner filled, and I want that slot filled, so I can sit there blind.”

With all due respect... I'll wait till he's not dead last in the SEC before considering firing Budenholzer so that Jerry Stackhouse can coach the Milwaukee Bucks. Is that fair?


Yes that's absolutely fair. I'm also against firing Bud (unless we can get a clear upgrade) and I'm even more against hiring Stack in our situation. I just think it's lazy assuming an ex-player can teach anything but his former style of play and don't like your reaction when being called out.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#139 » by Ruzious » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:24 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
LuessiT wrote:
I'm rolling my eyes because you imply something based on his playing days that couldn't be further from the truth. Stack as a coach praises moving the ball and making the extra pass in mostly a drive and kick offense. There's an interview where he chuckles because he teaches basketball exactly opposite to his playing days. Or just hear from himself:


With all due respect... I'll wait till he's not dead last in the SEC before considering firing Budenholzer so that Jerry Stackhouse can coach the Milwaukee Bucks. Is that fair?


Yes that's absolutely fair. I'm also against firing Bud (unless we can get a clear upgrade) and I'm even more against hiring Stack in our situation. I just think it's lazy assuming an ex-player can teach anything but his former style of play and don't like your reaction when being called out.

That's not what I said, and this conversation is over.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#140 » by BigO » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:33 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
i'm stuck between these two hypothesis:

1. bud has overachieved dramatically with this roster in the regular season but the playoffs is a true indicator of what they really are or

2. bud is able to win big in regular season but lacks the adjustments needed in the postseason


It is both.

Bud has flaws but it’s going to be very hard to find a better coach out there. The guy came into this dysfunctional mess of an organization and brought a system. That system won them 60+ last year and would have won them 60+ this year.

And I understand people looking at the one off, that was the Raptors firing Casey for Nurse. But for the Raptors to make that leap, it took them trading for Kawhi, who went on to have one of the all time great playoff performances in NBA history to knock the Bucks out in six games. And it also took FVV shooting 14-17 on threes.

The Bucks front office botched almost every personnel move from 2014 through the 2018 draft. Bud made the owners look like geniuses the past two years. If the Bucks now want to get from point B to point C, it’s going to take finding a Masai and giving him free reign. Instead we’re going to get Alex and Marc working the trade checker nonstop.


Excellent post until you said that the Bucks botched every move from 2014-2018, conveniently picking 2014 and not 2013. You just can't make a case against management by ignoring drafting Giannis and making the trade for Middleton in 2013.

Nothing that has happened the last two years was possible without Giannis and Middleton. So it's a mixed bag.

But I agree with the overall assessment. Bud is top 7 or 8. And I'd give him the benefit of the doubt if he acknowledged his shortcomings. But he hasn't and apparently won't, even though it's obvious to everyone. There is no basis to replace Bud with the likes of Stackhouse, Cassell, Charles Lee, et al. I do think Chauncy Billups is really smart and has the right temperament to coach, but I have no idea about his knowledge and philosophy on defense and offense.

One last anecdotal observation about Bud. I went to a lot of games this year and last. Unlike every other coach I have watched in person, Bud spends the least time in the huddle with his players after timeouts. In many instances, he goes back to the huddle as the time out is ending and quickly draws something out while the players have already stood up.
I wasn't sure why he always did that, but now it seems clear to me that he is so fixated on his limited defensive and offensive principles, that he has little to say to the players. Unlike Nick Nurse, who has multiple offensive and defensive sets, Bud doesn't. Things rarely change. He has nothing to say to them.

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