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Bud Replacement Candidates

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

Updated List (Donovan, Craig, Internal added)

Becky Hammon (SAS asst)
0
No votes
Kenny Atkinson
0
No votes
Mike D'Antoni
2
7%
Billy Donovan
5
17%
Jerry Stackhouse
4
13%
Chris Finch (NOP asst)
2
7%
Dan Craig (MIA asst)
0
No votes
Internal Promotion (Darvin Ham or Charles Lee)
2
7%
Retain Bud & Pray He Improves (or brings in someone to run the offense)
14
47%
Other (Specify, lots of worthy candidates)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#161 » by EastSideBucksFan » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:01 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
BigO wrote:
Excellent post until you said that the Bucks botched every move from 2014-2018, conveniently picking 2014 and not 2013. You just can't make a case against management by ignoring drafting Giannis and making the trade for Middleton in 2013.

Nothing that has happened the last two years was possible without Giannis and Middleton. So it's a mixed bag.


The Giannis/Middleton moves were made about a week apart in the summer of 2013 by the Hammond/Kohl regime. They sort of stumbled into them, because other than those two moves, there was little personnel genius shown by Kohl or Hammond (either here or now with Hammond in Orlando).

2014 is when the new owners took over and brought in Jason Kidd. That new regime made an absolute mess of things. It didn't really get corrected until Wes Edens over-ruled Lasry by bringing in Horst and later Bud.

The moves the Bud/Horst team made were all to fit Bud's system. And those guys did one heck of a job, essentially building two 60-win teams. Bucks ownership needs to tread lightly here IMO, because any changes could bring about a much worse outcome.



I don't think it an be questioned that Bud system unlocked Giannis and Middleton

But, Bud clearly has shown us who he is as a playoff coach.

Maybe we can convince Pop to come and be Head Coach while Bud learns for a couple more years. :(

No easy answer what to do with a Regular Season King and a Playoff jester style of coach.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#162 » by Krispy Kreme » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:02 pm

Look, I get that Bud has his flaws but I'm just not seeing the alternative.

If Giannis turns down the supermax, we basically have one shot to change his mind and convince him we've built a winning culture here. The best bet to making that happen, in my opinion, is running it back with largely the same squad aside from some minor tweaks. I'll chalk this up to a weird season with a pandemic in the middle of it and hope things get rolling in what's hopefully a more normal season.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#163 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:08 pm

I always liked McMillan's Indy. Crappy players made his plays look boring, but they were solid plays and the ball was always moving.
Kinda old school ball, Giannis would love it.
Fk it I would love it. Had enough of let it fly.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#164 » by Krispy Kreme » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:36 pm

Pachinko_ wrote:I always liked McMillan's Indy. Crappy players made his plays look boring, but they were solid plays and the ball was always moving.
Kinda old school ball, Giannis would love it.
Fk it I would love it. Had enough of let it fly.


I feel like when the ball stops moving in our offense it's most often because Giannis stops it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but Giannis' IQ still hurts the flow of our offense, especially when you get a team like the Heat who schemes him really well.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#165 » by PG Graveyard » Wed Sep 9, 2020 2:40 pm

I don't really like the replacement options here, but Bud really let me down in this series. I don't really care about the X's and O's, but the minutes are easy to figure out and he failed that miserably. He needs to be more open to changes if he is going to stay on and take this team further. He definitely has a bit of an Andy Reid feel to him right now.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#166 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Sep 9, 2020 10:50 pm

Krispy Kreme wrote:
Pachinko_ wrote:I always liked McMillan's Indy. Crappy players made his plays look boring, but they were solid plays and the ball was always moving.
Kinda old school ball, Giannis would love it.
Fk it I would love it. Had enough of let it fly.


I feel like when the ball stops moving in our offense it's most often because Giannis stops it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but Giannis' IQ still hurts the flow of our offense, especially when you get a team like the Heat who schemes him really well.

I hear you, but it doesn't take a lot of IQ to keep the ball moving. I think Giannis always does what his coaches tell him, that's what you learn in Greece and I see it in everything he does. I think it's a simple question of asking him or just telling him.

Remember he's 2 time MVP now, he doesn't need to convince anyone he's a superstar anymore, all that is missing from his resume is the ring. If someone convinces him that him scoring only 15-20 a game means better chances for a ring he will absolutely do it. No doubt on my mind.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#167 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:28 pm

One core aspect of Bud's coaching is being a player's coach, and players seem to love him. This goes back to Atlanta as well. Look at how many role players have come here when there were probably at least a half dozen contenders interested in signing them at the same price (Pau, Marvin, Wes, RoLo, Korver, Brook when he first signed, arguablly Ersan).

Not saying all those acquisitions panned out, but it does strongly suggest Bud is a coach that people like to play for. When Mirotic was traded to the Bucks, he told Pau the culture was basically basketball heaven. He pretty much refused to play for anyone else and went back to Europe when the Bucks weren't interested. Obviously Giannis is part of the draw as well, but this doesn't happen without a coach that players love.

This may also be part of Bud's downside. You see players doing infuriating things and wonder how Bud can let it slide. However, it may go with the territory of trying to establish that he trusts players and doesn't want to stifle them. In other words, changing his philosophy might have a lot of unintended consequences.

I still think at least half the blame goes to the player just being bad decision-makers. A coach can't micromanage everything and every single coach has to trust players to make better decisions, no matter how good the scheme may or may not be.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#168 » by pifhluk23 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:38 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:One core aspect of Bud's coaching is being a player's coach, and players seem to love him. This goes back to Atlanta as well. Look at how many role players have come here when there were probably at least a half dozen contenders interested in signing them at the same price (Pau, Marvin, Wes, RoLo, Korver, Brook when he first signed, arguablly Ersan).

Not saying all those acquisitions panned out, but it does strongly suggest Bud is a coach that people like to play for. When Mirotic was traded to the Bucks, he told Pau the culture was basically basketball heaven. He pretty much refused to play for anyone else and went back to Europe when the Bucks weren't interested. Obviously Giannis is part of the draw as well, but this doesn't happen without a coach that players love.

This may also be part of Bud's downside. You see players doing infuriating things and wonder how Bud can let it slide. However, it may go with the territory of trying to establish that he trusts players and doesn't want to stifle them. In other words, changing his philosophy might have a lot of unintended consequences.

I still think at least half the blame goes to the player just being bad decision-makers. A coach can't micromanage everything and every single coach has to trust players to make better decisions, no matter how good the scheme may or may not be.


Jason Kidd and countless other "player coaches" were beloved by players yet still trash at strategy.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#169 » by coolhandluke121 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:46 pm

pifhluk23 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:One core aspect of Bud's coaching is being a player's coach, and players seem to love him. This goes back to Atlanta as well. Look at how many role players have come here when there were probably at least a half dozen contenders interested in signing them at the same price (Pau, Marvin, Wes, RoLo, Korver, Brook when he first signed, arguablly Ersan).

Not saying all those acquisitions panned out, but it does strongly suggest Bud is a coach that people like to play for. When Mirotic was traded to the Bucks, he told Pau the culture was basically basketball heaven. He pretty much refused to play for anyone else and went back to Europe when the Bucks weren't interested. Obviously Giannis is part of the draw as well, but this doesn't happen without a coach that players love.

This may also be part of Bud's downside. You see players doing infuriating things and wonder how Bud can let it slide. However, it may go with the territory of trying to establish that he trusts players and doesn't want to stifle them. In other words, changing his philosophy might have a lot of unintended consequences.

I still think at least half the blame goes to the player just being bad decision-makers. A coach can't micromanage everything and every single coach has to trust players to make better decisions, no matter how good the scheme may or may not be.


Jason Kidd and countless other "player coaches" were beloved by players yet still trash at strategy.


Those coaches aren't "beloved." They are respected. Huge difference. Kidd was a type-A p.o.s. and borderline sociopath. We probably only know the tip of the iceberg with regard to the toxicity there.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#170 » by Iheartfootball » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:47 pm

As significant as upgrading their perimeter scoring, I think upgrading the team's BBIQ has to be high on the list. They make such poor decisions and it's magnified in the playoffs. That's why coaching goes hand in hand with this for me. If they have a coach who can make adjustments as needed on the fly it would fill a huge gap in some of their offensive deficiencies. Is Bud that guy? I just don't think he is. I saw no change in his philosophy after getting bounced by the Raptors last year to this year. He's slow to non-existent on adjustments, similar to Giannis. Can't have both your best player and coach deficient in those areas to win.

Also, being a player's coach is a good quality to possess in today's league. But it can't be your only strong suit.

My two cents.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#171 » by Ron Swanson » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:04 pm

Any good NBA coach allows their players a certain level of freedom within the flow of the offense and Bud is no different. Which is why I don't get this notion that's cropped up where people feel like it's the coach's fault if he's not out there rigidly drawing up every play, psycho-analyzing/micro-managing every back-cut, and chewing out guys after every missed rotation. Blame the system itself for being rigid if you want (fair), but so much of the "adjustments" criticism has basically become twisted into you wanting the coach to hold the players' hands out there. There has to be a level of trust that your guys are going to make the right decisions, or else the alternative is what? A Scott Skiles or Tom Thibodea disciplinarian/toxic locker room presence? No thanks.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#172 » by th87 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 am

So much for that.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#173 » by Prez » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:07 am

Bud is a huge reason why I'd consider the CP3 trade, CP would call Bud on his stupid crap immediately. Every adjustment Bud wouldn't make or would wait 3 straight losses to make, Paul would be in his ear about it immediately.

I don't think we can win a title with Bud as a playoff coach unless the roster is ridiculously stacked, or we have a genius level floor general who basically does Bud's job for him.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#174 » by BigO » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:13 am

Chuck Diesel wrote:I think my ideal (unlikely) scenario is the Bucks fire Horst, give Budenholzer full control over all basketball operations and name Charles Lee head coach. Budenholzer fully focused on solely being a GM could be really good. Infrastructure stays intact.


I don't know where you come up with this "ideal" scenario. You have no idea whether Bud would make a good GM and no one else does either. And you know nothing about Charles Lee ability to coach. If you're going to say why Lee would be a better coach than Bud, then tell us why. Just saying something without facts is not convincing.

What is a fact is that Bud was thoroughly outcoached in the playoffs the last two years- specifically, he refused to adapt either his offense or defense to what the other coaches were doing. He seems incapable of change or is not versed in anything but his own system, which is an indictment of him.

Bud is among the top 7 in the league , but isn't the guy to lead us forward, unless he does a complete change in philosophy, both in playing his top players more minutes in the playoffs and in adapting in-game changes. If you can get the elder Van Gundy, go for it. But please, no Charles Lee-why would you ever replace a coach who hasn't done the job with his much younger assistant? Bizarre.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#175 » by M-C-G » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:38 am

Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#176 » by th87 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:30 am

M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.


This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#177 » by Baddy Chuck » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:45 am

th87 wrote:
M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

I think there's a pretty big difference between getting gut punched by Miami and losing a fairly close series to the future champs led by basically prime Michael Jordan. Going into this season I would assume it was a lot of "stay the course/get better" stuff where is after what we saw in the playoff this year Bud pretty much has to look himself in the mirror and say somethings have to change.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#178 » by th87 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:47 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:
th87 wrote:
M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

I think there's a pretty big difference between getting gut punched by Miami and losing a fairly close series to the future champs led by basically prime Michael Jordan. Going into this season I would assume it was a lot of "stay the course/get better" stuff where is after what we saw in the playoff this year Bud pretty much has to look himself in the mirror and say somethings have to change.


The Toronto series was eminently winnable with adjustments to exploit matchups, rather than stubbornly force-feeding a scheme (and substitution patterns) and ramming into their wall. They lost, then lost, then lost, and then lost again while trying the same thing each time.

This year, armed with the lessons of last year, they tried the exact same thing and lost in the exact same way. And then lost again. And again (that's now 0 for 7 against the same defense that has the personnel to execute it). A fourth consecutive loss was likely if not for the forced change. This was against a far inferior team in an earlier round.

Wouldn't anyone sensible notice this around halftime of game 2, and think, "Hey, recent history is repeating itself, maybe we should try something different?" That this was allowed to continue is gross incompetence, and I don't know how anyone could be confident in him anymore.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#179 » by msiris » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:47 pm

Sign Giannis to a super max and then fire Bud. His playoff record speaks for itself.
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Re: Bud Replacement Candidates 

Post#180 » by coolhandluke121 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:55 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Any good NBA coach allows their players a certain level of freedom within the flow of the offense and Bud is no different. Which is why I don't get this notion that's cropped up where people feel like it's the coach's fault if he's not out there rigidly drawing up every play, psycho-analyzing/micro-managing every back-cut, and chewing out guys after every missed rotation. Blame the system itself for being rigid if you want (fair), but so much of the "adjustments" criticism has basically become twisted into you wanting the coach to hold the players' hands out there. There has to be a level of trust that your guys are going to make the right decisions, or else the alternative is what? A Scott Skiles or Tom Thibodea disciplinarian/toxic locker room presence? No thanks.


Right, I keep saying this too. The idea that Spoelstra or Stevens is making sure guys make the right decision 5 times on every single possession is a bunch of hairy balls. How was Stevens' scheme when he had Flat Earth running the offense and "Crack Mamba" Tatum chucking long 2's?

Bud deserves his share of criticism, but I am definitely hoping to see how he does with some better decision-makers before I even think about looking elsewhere.
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