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My concern with Bud is not his actual coaching - I think he's actually phenomenal, as almost EVERY top Eastern conference team was trying to build teams to counter the Bucks and their playing style this season. My problem stems from what happened when the chips were down: Giannis and Middleton (and really the whole team) reverted to a bad brand of basketball, with little passing and movement and a lot of standing around. This led me to three conclusions:
1) Bud is reticent to hold his guys accountable and demand different play from them, which leads to reinforcement of bad habits - this is bad.
2) Bud doesn't have the capabilities to adjust, and can only see a singular style to play with for his team - this is worse, but also less likely, as we saw some adjustments during the RS.
3) Bud does make adjustments, but his players ignore his adjustments and play their own game - this is the worst, because it means that Bud is ineffectual and it doesn't matter which coach comes in, our guys will never be more than playoff fodder anyways.

I'm super bearish on Bud's long term success here (which of course influences Giannis' future here as well), but also realize that I think he's a damn good coach and that, with a player better able to demand accountability on the court at the PG position, and better playmakers on the bench, that the team's fortune could turn around.

th87 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Not really, Middleton was allowed to expand his game further as a mid range player and Giannis improved against the 'wall'...Toronto last year was the first team to really do it. He was better against it.

My beef is that Bud is allowing teams to go small against us, and we have Lopez and Giannis out on the perimeter. The minute they go small we need to have a post plan to destroy them, but he has been resistant to it for two years. It has pissed me off to no end with regard to bud.

But I think we are close...get more off ball movement when Giannis sees the wall, get way more PnR play, find more ways to feed Giannis ala Deandre Jordan...there are so many easy moves to make, but Bud has to buy in

I'm absolutely clamoring for more off-ball movement, pin-down screens, pick n roll, and those cuts that miami runs all the time. I can admit though that our team may not be built well for that. We have a bunch of, what I would call, non-dimensional players that don't have easily identifiable strengths in the NBA. The types of offensive strengths where you can build an offense around them.

We have one movement shooter, and he's almost 40. We don't screen well enough to get him clean looks, and we don't run counter actions to get other guys free off Korver's movement. When we run screens for korver the whole world knows what we are about to do. The other issue with him is that he really isn't bringing much else on the court at this point.

We have one player who can shoot off the dribble. That being middleton, but I've never thought he's all that good at coming off screens. Maybe someone can point to stats that refute what I'm saying here, but I don't think he's nimble enough off screens to kill teams. He's better off the dribble, which is super useful, but limits our team in ways.

We have i think only one player who can reliably finish at the hoop in Giannis. People may dispute this with Brook and bledsoe, but I don't think they are particularly good at either getting to the rim in Brook's case, or finishing in bledsoe's case.

Pat and Donte are probably two of our more active cutters, but neither is going to scare a defense about finishing at the rim, especially Donte.

I think the biggest thing may be we don't have a single player who can bend a defense by being a threat from outside, competently handle the ball, and finishing at the hoop. Brogdon gave us some of this last year, and I think it's what we really need Donte to become, but I don't know when or if that will happen for him. Right now there are serious questions about Donte's shot, handle, and finishing ability. Hill might be able to do these three things, but his volume is so low that it isn't really a staple of our offense - he's mostly a spot up shooter at this point.

th87 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Exactly. Wasn't this the same complaint in ATL? Why should we have faith he will do it next season? Bud is what he is at this point.

Iheartfootball wrote:

th87 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Exactly. Wasn't this the same complaint in ATL? Why should we have faith he will do it next season? Bud is what he is at this point.

Yes. Hawk fans warned us. People say it was close vs the Raps but we lost 4 straight. I have seen enough. I am sure he is a nice guy but its the results that matter

It’s not even just in-game adjustments in the playoffs, it would require basically an overhaul of how he approaches the season as a whole.

What makes Nurse, Stevens, Spo special is that they spend the entire regular season trying all different things..zone, trapping, switching, dropping, they try every defensive scheme imaginable, drill those concepts/habits in their players constantly, adapt extensively in the RS and game plan for specific opponents. so when they get to the playoffs they can seamlessly adapt to any opponent and the players are on a string executing perfectly.

Bud spends the whole season primarily playing one way and doesn’t experiment anywhere near enough, and when we get to the playoffs, even when he does make adjustments (usually way too late) you get a ton of mistakes and sloppiness because he didn’t build those habits in the RS.

The minutes stuff, playing his best guys 40+ and cutting the rotation down, it goes against everything he believes in.

We’re basically asking him to fundamentally change how he approaches coaching.

I'm fine with bringing back Bud and hoping he changes, but like Prez said, we're asking him to try and change how he fundamentally coaches. That might be hard for a veteran coach. I'm still in the Charles Lee camp and hoping he can be our Nurse. See what Bud did well, and improve on the weaknesses he was too stubborn to make.

msiris wrote:

Iheartfootball wrote:

th87 wrote:
This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Exactly. Wasn't this the same complaint in ATL? Why should we have faith he will do it next season? Bud is what he is at this point.

Yes. Hawk fans warned us. People say it was close vs the Raps but we lost 4 straight. I have seen enough. I am sure he is a nice guy but its the results that matter

oh, I noticed a change from last year to this year...more willing to forgo the all 3 and rim offense but he just didn't take it far enough in my opinion.

Anyway, I could be wrong, but I just want a tweak on his philosophy not an entirely new scheme

Prez wrote:It’s not even just in-game adjustments in the playoffs, it would require basically an overhaul of how he approaches the season as a whole.

What makes Nurse, Stevens, Spo special is that they spend the entire regular season trying all different things..zone, trapping, switching, dropping, they try every defensive scheme imaginable, drill those concepts/habits in their players constantly, adapt extensively in the RS and game plan for specific opponents. so when they get to the playoffs they can seamlessly adapt to any opponent and the players are on a string executing perfectly.

Bud spends the whole season primarily playing one way and doesn’t experiment anywhere near enough, and when we get to the playoffs, even when he does make adjustments (usually way too late) you get a ton of mistakes and sloppiness because he didn’t build those habits in the RS.

The minutes stuff, playing his best guys 40+ and cutting the rotation down, it goes against everything he believes in.

We’re basically asking him to fundamentally change how he approaches coaching.

Great post. Summarizes Bud exactly. Add to that, his insistence in limiting the mid-range game, which has been Middletons bread and butter. He needs to play to his players strengths rather than force them all to be 3 point artists, when that may not be their strength.

Chuck Diesel wrote:I think my ideal (unlikely) scenario is the Bucks fire Horst, give Budenholzer full control over all basketball operations and name Charles Lee head coach. Budenholzer fully focused on solely being a GM could be really good. Infrastructure stays intact.

What have you seen from Bud that makes you trust him with that much power?

M-C-G wrote:

th87 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:Guys, don't over complicate this, Bud is maybe the best coach we have had. However, he needs to not be stubborn and adapt, create way more movement on offense. That is the problem he has to solve this offseason. If he figures it out, we will win a champ, if he doesn't, he will be commentating on TNT.

This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Not really, Middleton was allowed to expand his game further as a mid range player and Giannis improved against the 'wall'...Toronto last year was the first team to really do it. He was better against it.

My beef is that Bud is allowing teams to go small against us, and we have Lopez and Giannis out on the perimeter. The minute they go small we need to have a post plan to destroy them, but he has been resistant to it for two years. It has pissed me off to no end with regard to bud.

But I think we are close...get more off ball movement when Giannis sees the wall, get way more PnR play, find more ways to feed Giannis ala Deandre Jordan...there are so many easy moves to make, but Bud has to buy in

He's not going to change his philosophies overnight.

CharityStripe34 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:

th87 wrote:
This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Not really, Middleton was allowed to expand his game further as a mid range player and Giannis improved against the 'wall'...Toronto last year was the first team to really do it. He was better against it.

My beef is that Bud is allowing teams to go small against us, and we have Lopez and Giannis out on the perimeter. The minute they go small we need to have a post plan to destroy them, but he has been resistant to it for two years. It has pissed me off to no end with regard to bud.

But I think we are close...get more off ball movement when Giannis sees the wall, get way more PnR play, find more ways to feed Giannis ala Deandre Jordan...there are so many easy moves to make, but Bud has to buy in

He's not going to change his philosophies overnight.

At this point, it is adapt or go work for TNT, the choice is up to him

While it's true Bud is set in his ways, assuming that he is capable and knowledgeable about implementing other defenses, may be incorrect. He may only be good in teaching one defense and offense.

M-C-G wrote:

CharityStripe34 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:

Not really, Middleton was allowed to expand his game further as a mid range player and Giannis improved against the 'wall'...Toronto last year was the first team to really do it. He was better against it.

My beef is that Bud is allowing teams to go small against us, and we have Lopez and Giannis out on the perimeter. The minute they go small we need to have a post plan to destroy them, but he has been resistant to it for two years. It has pissed me off to no end with regard to bud.

But I think we are close...get more off ball movement when Giannis sees the wall, get way more PnR play, find more ways to feed Giannis ala Deandre Jordan...there are so many easy moves to make, but Bud has to buy in

He's not going to change his philosophies overnight.

At this point, it is adapt or go work for TNT, the choice is up to him

The problem is we may have just one year left with Giannis and when Bud’s working for TNT, Giannis could be playing for another team. We don’t have time to mess around and waste another year with atrocious playoff coaching.

BigO wrote:While it's true Bud is set in his ways, assuming that he is capable and knowledgeable about implementing other defenses, may be incorrect. He may only be good in teaching one defense and offense.

But the offense and defense with the Bucks is totally different from the offense and defense he used with the Hawks

The Hawks offense for example moved the ball more than pretty much any other team.

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Bill Fitch.

I think this year is buds mulligan if the bucks make some big time trades bring in paul and Daniel G n jj and they still crap down their leg come playoff time n bud does the same ole 3 yrs in a row he is gone

Prez wrote:

M-C-G wrote:

CharityStripe34 wrote:
He's not going to change his philosophies overnight.

At this point, it is adapt or go work for TNT, the choice is up to him

The problem is we may have just one year left with Giannis and when Bud’s working for TNT, Giannis could be playing for another team. We don’t have time to mess around and waste another year with atrocious playoff coaching.

Yeah, here is my issue with that, Bud's playoff coaching is either that he is not an intelligent enough of a basketball mind to make adjustments OR he is too stubborn to make adjustments. I think it is the latter of the two, which is why the owners need to tell him to adapt or leave.

If he isn't willing to adapt, then I'd start the coaching search. But there is a lot of risk with bringing in a new coach too, unless you think you have that guy sitting on the bench like Nurse was in Toronto where you could make an in season move to say Darvin Ham.

Lastly, if Giannis is leaving I will blame the Bucks organization and frankly, can't really see myself caring much any more. I waited too long for us to get a star, I've spent too much money, if they can't figure out a way to keep him here, I'm out.

CharityStripe34 wrote:

M-C-G wrote:

th87 wrote:
This exact prescription was true last summer. No headway was made whatsoever. Why do we think it'll be different this time?

Not really, Middleton was allowed to expand his game further as a mid range player and Giannis improved against the 'wall'...Toronto last year was the first team to really do it. He was better against it.

My beef is that Bud is allowing teams to go small against us, and we have Lopez and Giannis out on the perimeter. The minute they go small we need to have a post plan to destroy them, but he has been resistant to it for two years. It has pissed me off to no end with regard to bud.

But I think we are close...get more off ball movement when Giannis sees the wall, get way more PnR play, find more ways to feed Giannis ala Deandre Jordan...there are so many easy moves to make, but Bud has to buy in

He's not going to change his philosophies overnight.

Why not? You think he enjoys failure or that he is too blind to recognize the failure?