Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[jimmybones]

Should there be any concern that an extension has not yet be reached? Feel like he would have signed it day 1 if max was the offer.

Wondering if the Bucks are allowed to trade Jrue mid-season this year.

The Bucks had to understand the situation (including the leverage they gave Jrue) when they made the trade, so they made their bed and have to lay in it. They hitched their wagon to Jrue, and there's basically no turning back.

That's all the cliches I got - for now.

You win some, ya lose some. It is what it is man. Broken clocks are never right any time of the day wait what

[packer396]

Do we think something happened with Hill and the franchise last summer? There seems to be a lot of bad blood there, but maybe it's just the trade itself?

Yes Hill has made some comments about "ruffling some feathers" within the org. There was some twitter speculation that it was related to the Alex Lasry news about yelling at the team for leaking the meeting with DA in the bubble

[Turk Nowitzki]

Do we think something happened with Hill and the franchise last summer? There seems to be a lot of bad blood there, but maybe it's just the trade itself?

I think that Hill thinks there was something else behind the trade but I'm not really buying that.

[packer396]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

I've wondered the same about Vucevic (albeit for a smaller outlay of picks)

[EastSideBucksFan]

Do we think something happened with Hill and the franchise last summer? There seems to be a lot of bad blood there, but maybe it's just the trade itself?

I think that Hill thinks there was something else behind the trade but I'm not really buying that.

There was.

He pissed off the one guy you don't want to piss off if you want to stay on the Bucks.

Giannis

George derailed the whole bubble locker room

All Giannis wants is guys who want to win a championship, George wasn't that guy anymore.

Staging a protest without telling teammates or the organization created a divide and put a timer on George's time as a Buck.

It wasn't the cause. It was how he went about it.

[Fotis St]

How many Trade seasons in row have we handcuffed our selves , carry a rock and drop ourselves into the ocean ?
These ownership system , this GM & this coach ... they are holding us back for at least 2-3 years, maybe more.
Since the East Finals it has been a downfall

[emunney]

Wasn't there also a report that Hill had been helping recruit Bogdan?

[soxperry]

So regular season stats then?

Touch and finish are only subcomponents of that success rate. If youre not being challenged at the rim you dont need to be a gifted finisher.

When you contrast those stats vs their playoff stats you will most likely see that you have proven my original point. That while bledsoe feasts on weak d he has no answer for when things get complicated. Ive already seen many situations this season where Jrue looks dead in the water near the rim and somehow finds an opening, spins it off the backboard and in, making it look very easy.

This isnt the hill to die on but do you

You want to know what Bledsoe shot at the rim during that dreadful 18-19 run? 75%.

Point blank, you are now moving goal posts. I haven't "proven your original point," you've now changed yours in its entirety because you're, I'll use your words, choosing a hill to die on without any statistical merit whatsoever. That's what's happening here. You've now gone from inserting yourself in a "better at finishing" argument to "Bledsoe feasting on weak D he has no answer for when things get complicated." Getting to the rim and moving in the in between in the half court is an entirely different skillset than finishing. Nobody is arguing against Bledsoe's playoff warts (much of which probably stem from the mental side of things rather than ability), but here you are making a last ditch attempt to completely nullify your previous statement with, "Yeah, well playoffs" as if you're somehow making a point.

You're not. At best you've managed to build a straw man and make an argument that no one is really countering. Framing Holiday's playoffs stats as if it's somehow a representative sample size is what's really off base. You're using 9 games as the end all be all. I obviously hope Holiday IS that guy when things tighten up in the postseason, but there's a total absurdity in looking at what a guy did in such a limited sample and suddenly making that the expectation. We all saw Paul George fall apart last year and we've all seen Paul George perform really damn well in the playoffs. We saw Middleton absolutely kill Boston in an entire series, and we've seen him fold like a cheap suit against Toronto. Inconsistency is a thing. Holiday hasn't demonstrated anywhere near the level of consistency to act like he's some proven playoff performer because he had a monster first round series against Portland and then got the **** kicked out of them 1-4 in the second round.

The only hill I'm dying on is the rational one where I don't feel the need to just incessantly **** on a guy and make him out to be less of a player than he actually was because he's no longer a Milwaukee Buck. Bledsoe was consistently VERY VERY good during regular season play. He folded when it mattered. That doesn't change what he brought to this club for three seasons.

I totally forgot that i wrote that and never checked back.

Let me respond to your very well crafted argument by saying, simply, "Nah.."

Watch on YouTube

[paulpressey25]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

We're not even close, look at the AD trade. Pelicans got the 4th pick of the draft, plus the picks and pick swaps, but also the super valuable Brandon Ingram, Lonzo, along with Hart.

Don't think either of us can empirically say yes or no on something like this. A lot depends on how desperate or dumb the other team is. A couple thoughts though:

AD >> KAT

Minnesota management dumber than NOP management

With the Jrue trade, we created a new marketplace of value for a borderline all-star player. Before the Jrue trade, the package we put on the table would have gotten you a superstar. And frankly Harden didn't go for a whole lot more six-weeks later.

[CharityStripe34]

The way Holiday was playing just before covid hit him looked great, especially next to Gianni and Khris. He's back at the perfect time. Second half of the season is going to be fascinating for this team. Bud needs to continue letting Jrue and Khris be initiators and allow Gianni to be the finisher. Slowly kill the "Giannis-1-on-5 from the top of the key" crap.

[MVP2110]

Any update on a Jrue extension? I know Voodoo said he wasn't going anywhere but it seems sort of odd he hasn't signed it yet

[ShootingtheJ]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

We're not even close, look at the AD trade. Pelicans got the 4th pick of the draft, plus the picks and pick swaps, but also the super valuable Brandon Ingram, Lonzo, along with Hart.

Don't think either of us can empirically say yes or no on something like this. A lot depends on how desperate or dumb the other team is. A couple thoughts though:

AD >> KAT

Minnesota management dumber than NOP management

With the Jrue trade, we created a new marketplace of value for a borderline all-star player. Before the Jrue trade, the package we put on the table would have gotten you a superstar. And frankly Harden didn't go for a whole lot more six-weeks later.

While I agree that Minnesota is dumb, they're still talking the best offer. Look at what OKC can offer, and they'll do it.

[emunney]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

We're not even close, look at the AD trade. Pelicans got the 4th pick of the draft, plus the picks and pick swaps, but also the super valuable Brandon Ingram, Lonzo, along with Hart.

Don't think either of us can empirically say yes or no on something like this. A lot depends on how desperate or dumb the other team is. A couple thoughts though:

AD >> KAT

Minnesota management dumber than NOP management

With the Jrue trade, we created a new marketplace of value for a borderline all-star player. Before the Jrue trade, the package we put on the table would have gotten you a superstar. And frankly Harden didn't go for a whole lot more six-weeks later.

I don't think the package we put on the table gets you a superstar in any market. Two 30+ guards who've never made an all-star team, a bunch of picks, but the real potential payoff is so far down the line that it's fairly likely there will be nobody left from the basketball side of the organization to see it come through. This is the proverbial poo-poo platter. A pick 7 years from now just doesn't have much value now, no matter how badly it might come back to bite you in the future.

The problem with the trade wasn't the absolute value of the package, it was the way it tied our hands for subsequent moves. Being unable to trade a 1st is not great for an ostensibly contending team left with no depth.

[paulpressey25]

I don't think the package we put on the table gets you a superstar in any market.

Go back in time and look what KG went for from Minny.

July 31, 2007: Traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 1st round draft pick (Wayne Ellington was later selected) and a 2009 1st round draft pick (Jonny Flynn was later selected).

Or Pau Gasol:

February 1, 2008: Traded by the Memphis Grizzlies with a 2010 2nd round draft pick (Devin Ebanks was later selected) to the Los Angeles Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Marc Gasol, Aaron McKie, a 2008 1st round draft pick (Donté Greene was later selected) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Greivis Vásquez was later selected).

Rasheed wasn't a superstar, but he was sort of in KAT territory (underachieving) when he was dealt.

February 19, 2004: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Atlanta Hawks to the Detroit Pistons; the Boston Celtics traded Chris Mills to the Atlanta Hawks; the Boston Celtics traded Mike James to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Željko Rebrača, Bob Sura and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Josh Smith was later selected) to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Detroit Pistons traded Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Tony Allen was later selected) to the Boston Celtics.

We've entered this new era, where certain teams (Lakers, Clippers, Bucks) have tossed away their drafts for the next 5-7 years. I don't think it is sustainable, and do think if one of these trades goes super bad, you'll see the owners put in a "Lasry Rule" where you can't deal the ability to swap first round picks if dealt in conjunction with other actual first rounders.

[humanrefutation]

I don't think the package we put on the table gets you a superstar in any market.

Go back in time and look what KG went for from Minny.

July 31, 2007: Traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 1st round draft pick (Wayne Ellington was later selected) and a 2009 1st round draft pick (Jonny Flynn was later selected).

Or Pau Gasol:

February 1, 2008: Traded by the Memphis Grizzlies with a 2010 2nd round draft pick (Devin Ebanks was later selected) to the Los Angeles Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Marc Gasol, Aaron McKie, a 2008 1st round draft pick (Donté Greene was later selected) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Greivis Vásquez was later selected).

Rasheed wasn't a superstar, but he was sort of in KAT territory (underachieving) when he was dealt.

February 19, 2004: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Atlanta Hawks to the Detroit Pistons; the Boston Celtics traded Chris Mills to the Atlanta Hawks; the Boston Celtics traded Mike James to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Željko Rebrača, Bob Sura and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Josh Smith was later selected) to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Detroit Pistons traded Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Tony Allen was later selected) to the Boston Celtics.

We've entered this new era, where certain teams (Lakers, Clippers, Bucks) have tossed away their drafts for the next 5-7 years. I don't think it is sustainable, and do think if one of these trades goes super bad, you'll see the owners put in a "Lasry Rule" where you can't deal the ability to swap first round picks if dealt in conjunction with other actual first rounders.

I also think there's been a shift in thinking for GMs of teams trading superstars - that they'd rather take a haul of first round picks over a pu pu platter of young players with questionable long-term potential. They want the flexibility of being able to pick their own guys - or packaging those picks to move up - with the potential that one of those picks far off into the future becomes a top selection if the trading team collapses. I think the Celtics/Nets trade involving KG/Pierce was the big selling point for that philosophy.

[skones]

Wonder if we could have gotten Towns for a similar Jrue package.

We're not even close, look at the AD trade. Pelicans got the 4th pick of the draft, plus the picks and pick swaps, but also the super valuable Brandon Ingram, Lonzo, along with Hart.

Ingram, Lonzo, and Hart were not "super valuable" pieces. There weren't a lot of people that were super high on Ingram or Ball when they were dealt. Ingram's breakout last season doesn't increase the value had when he was dealt. They were nice prospects. Super Valuable is a stretch.

[paulpressey25]

Ingram, Lonzo, and Hart were not "super valuable" pieces. There weren't a lot of people that were super high on Ingram or Ball when they were dealt. Ingram's breakout last season doesn't increase the value had when he was dealt. They were nice prospects. Super Valuable is a stretch.

I concur. In the case of Ingram, the Pelican's made out far better than the conventional wisdom said they would. Two years ago the guy had a heart condition and looked to be a tweener, who was destined for a career as a non-impact scorer.

[paulpressey25]

I also think there's been a shift in thinking for GMs of teams trading superstars - that they'd rather take a haul of first round picks over a pu pu platter of young players with questionable long-term potential. They want the flexibility of being able to pick their own guys - or packaging those picks to move up - with the potential that one of those picks far off into the future becomes a top selection if the trading team collapses. I think the Celtics/Nets trade involving KG/Pierce was the big selling point for that philosophy.

Agreed. And by having those picks far out, it also gives the GM some job security. "Hey, you can't judge me on that trade until we get access to those picks (or pick swaps) that I got"

In fairness to the Bucks, for a variety of reasons, a first round pick (especially a high lotto pick) does seem to have less value than it did a decade ago. Teams are pulling really good players out from other parts of the draft and/or the second round. Nonetheless, what the team gave up for Jrue is extremely problematic on a lot of levels IMO.

[raferfenix]

Wasn't there also a report that Hill had been helping recruit Bogdan?

Yes, Sam Amick in The Athletic:

Sources say two-time MVP Giannis Antetokounmpo wasn’t the only one recruiting Bogdanovic, as former Bucks point guard George Hill was also known to be in touch with his former teammate from their Kings days. Now Bogdanovic, it seems, was very interested in the idea of joining the Bucks when the unofficial offensive hierarchy only had Antetokounmpo and Khris Middleton above him.

But when Milwaukee made the four-team trade that landed the Bucks Jrue Holiday and sent Hill to Oklahoma City, this pecking order most assuredly changed — not to mention the personal dynamics relating to Bogdanovic’s friendship with Hill. Next thing you know, the deal-that-wasn’t-a-deal was falling apart and both sides found themselves facing the investigation, which all but guaranteed that Bogdanovic would head elsewhere.

https://theathletic.com/2239057/2020/12/04/rockets-clippers-ego-check-bogdanovic-debacle-curry-unleashed-media-week-notes/

[emunney]

I don't think the package we put on the table gets you a superstar in any market.

Go back in time and look what KG went for from Minny.

July 31, 2007: Traded by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 1st round draft pick (Wayne Ellington was later selected) and a 2009 1st round draft pick (Jonny Flynn was later selected).

Or Pau Gasol:

February 1, 2008: Traded by the Memphis Grizzlies with a 2010 2nd round draft pick (Devin Ebanks was later selected) to the Los Angeles Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Marc Gasol, Aaron McKie, a 2008 1st round draft pick (Donté Greene was later selected) and a 2010 1st round draft pick (Greivis Vásquez was later selected).

Rasheed wasn't a superstar, but he was sort of in KAT territory (underachieving) when he was dealt.

February 19, 2004: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Atlanta Hawks to the Detroit Pistons; the Boston Celtics traded Chris Mills to the Atlanta Hawks; the Boston Celtics traded Mike James to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Željko Rebrača, Bob Sura and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Josh Smith was later selected) to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Detroit Pistons traded Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Tony Allen was later selected) to the Boston Celtics.

We've entered this new era, where certain teams (Lakers, Clippers, Bucks) have tossed away their drafts for the next 5-7 years. I don't think it is sustainable, and do think if one of these trades goes super bad, you'll see the owners put in a "Lasry Rule" where you can't deal the ability to swap first round picks if dealt in conjunction with other actual first rounders.

The centerpiece of the KG deal was a 22 year old who had just put up 16-11. As a trade asset, clearly better than anything we gave up. And one of those 2009 1sts was the Wolves own pick, which, for a tanking team, is significant, and also clearly better than anything we gave up.

Pau was not a superstar, come on. This was a Jrue-level acquisition.

Rasheed was not a superstar AND was damaged goods.

If the Lasry Rule was going to happen it would have already happened and would be called the Prokhorov Rule.