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Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1441 » by Baddy Chuck » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:58 am

skones wrote:We had clearer paths to combining our slots to make it work. (Bled, Hill, Lopez, Ilyasova, plus DDV, and the draft capital)

Really don't think it's that clear. If you want to take a "literal" package that Houston got you have to get Victor Oladipo, whose literal value 1 for 1 was Caris LeVert, and a first round pick with that group. And I don't think that would be a clear sell at all.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1442 » by skones » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:12 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:
skones wrote:We had clearer paths to combining our slots to make it work. (Bled, Hill, Lopez, Ilyasova, plus DDV, and the draft capital)

Really don't think it's that clear. If you want to take a "literal" package that Houston got you have to get Victor Oladipo, whose literal value 1 for 1 was Caris LeVert, and a first round pick with that group. And I don't think that would be a clear sell at all.


Well, I think it's pretty clear I'm not trying to duplicate the "literal" package Houston received given the premise is a completely alternative offer. Your competition would NOT be what Brooklyn gave up. The competition, as already stated, is what Houston accepted, and like I said, I don't think we'd be far off. Certainly not to the degree of the preposterous suggestion of adding Middleton to the equation as if he lives on the same planet as Levert/Oladipo.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1443 » by Baddy Chuck » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:32 am

skones wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:
skones wrote:We had clearer paths to combining our slots to make it work. (Bled, Hill, Lopez, Ilyasova, plus DDV, and the draft capital)

Really don't think it's that clear. If you want to take a "literal" package that Houston got you have to get Victor Oladipo, whose literal value 1 for 1 was Caris LeVert, and a first round pick with that group. And I don't think that would be a clear sell at all.


Well, I think it's pretty clear I'm not trying to duplicate the "literal" package Houston received given the premise is a completely alternative offer. Your competition would NOT be what Brooklyn gave up. The competition, as already stated, is what Houston accepted, and like I said, I don't think we'd be far off. Certainly not to the degree of the preposterous suggestion of adding Middleton to the equation as if he lives on the same planet as Levert/Oladipo.

Straight up do not believe you could have acquired LeVert/Oladipo and Allen/1st with that group of players you listed. Think LeVert probably held significant value in the discussions and Houston simply made a bad choice on thinking Dipo would bounce back.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1444 » by Fotis St » Tue Mar 9, 2021 11:13 am

Baddy Chuck wrote:Over the next 5 years the biggest what if by far to me will be Harden. We make the splash for Jrue and within 2 weeks an MVP candidate demands a trade and wouldn't mind playing in Milwaukee. Ultimately he gets to traded to one of our biggest threats for a package we could probably have beaten and even if it meant gutting the roster/war chest it would probably have paid off huge.


You are absolutely right. Been saying the same thing for years. Our FO settles to being mediocre (actually bad) and not to be exposed, instead of aiming high for the big trophy. The later requires negotiation skills , assets preparation and patience ... like a Cobra waiting for the right moment.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1445 » by Baddy Chuck » Tue Mar 9, 2021 1:13 pm

Fotis St wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Over the next 5 years the biggest what if by far to me will be Harden. We make the splash for Jrue and within 2 weeks an MVP candidate demands a trade and wouldn't mind playing in Milwaukee. Ultimately he gets to traded to one of our biggest threats for a package we could probably have beaten and even if it meant gutting the roster/war chest it would probably have paid off huge.


You are absolutely right. Been saying the same thing for years. Our FO settles to being mediocre (actually bad) and not to be exposed, instead of aiming high for the big trophy. The later requires negotiation skills , assets preparation and patience ... like a Cobra waiting for the right moment.

Where I would normally agree with this, I think this offseason had one rather large, looming situation where something needed to be done and needed to be done quick. If Harden requests the trade a month earlier maybe things are different but I can't really fault them for going in on a deal that basically solidified the extension.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1446 » by JimmyTheKid » Tue Mar 9, 2021 1:51 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Fotis St wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:Over the next 5 years the biggest what if by far to me will be Harden. We make the splash for Jrue and within 2 weeks an MVP candidate demands a trade and wouldn't mind playing in Milwaukee. Ultimately he gets to traded to one of our biggest threats for a package we could probably have beaten and even if it meant gutting the roster/war chest it would probably have paid off huge.


You are absolutely right. Been saying the same thing for years. Our FO settles to being mediocre (actually bad) and not to be exposed, instead of aiming high for the big trophy. The later requires negotiation skills , assets preparation and patience ... like a Cobra waiting for the right moment.

Where I would normally agree with this, I think this offseason had one rather large, looming situation where something needed to be done and needed to be done quick. If Harden requests the trade a month earlier maybe things are different but I can't really fault them for going in on a deal that basically solidified the extension.


Kinda funny watching the shift here over the past few months. So many folks have talked themselves into believing that Giannis signing the super max was this inevitable formality, and that the organization could've taken their sweet time to find the best way to improve the roster. As if we had this magical trade package in our back pocket, just waiting for the right players to demand out. That is some serious revisionist history.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1447 » by RogerMurdock » Tue Mar 9, 2021 2:34 pm

Fotis St wrote:The later requires negotiation skills , assets preparation and patience ... like a Cobra waiting for the right moment.


I beg to differ. I once bought a complete-in-box Virtual Boy from a cobra for $20. I convinced him that because it didn't work perfectly - even though I knew it was a common, fixable problem - it wasn't worth what he wanted for it. Cobras are terrible negotiators.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1448 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 3:31 pm

My hot take is that Virtual Boy was actually very dope.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1449 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Mar 9, 2021 3:32 pm

emunney wrote:
Pau was not a superstar, come on. This was a Jrue-level acquisition.


Pau will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. The Lakers got him at age 27.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1450 » by skones » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:11 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
emunney wrote:
Pau was not a superstar, come on. This was a Jrue-level acquisition.


Pau will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. The Lakers got him at age 27.


Gasol had made one all-star game prior to being dealt to Los Angeles, so he was NOT yet a first ballot HOFer. With that being said, he was comfortably ahead of Jrue in the grand scheme of things having dragged James Posey, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, and Shane Battier, to seasons of 50, 45, and 49 wins. That's FAR more than Holiday has ever accomplished in his career. Then consider that the lack of all-star games was the direct result of Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk being in the same conference and spots weren't exactly easy to nab.

Pau wasn't a superstar, but he wasn't a HOFer when he was acquired either. Think Pau ultimately sat in that Jimmy Butler tier which is comfortably ahead of Holiday.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1451 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:25 pm

skones wrote:
paulpressey25 wrote:
emunney wrote:
Pau was not a superstar, come on. This was a Jrue-level acquisition.


Pau will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. The Lakers got him at age 27.


Gasol had made one all-star game prior to being dealt to Los Angeles, so he was NOT yet a first ballot HOFer. With that being said, he was comfortably ahead of Jrue in the grand scheme of things having dragged James Posey, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, and Shane Battier, to seasons of 50, 45, and 49 wins. That's FAR more than Holiday has ever accomplished in his career. Then consider that the lack of all-star games was the direct result of Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk being in the same conference and spots weren't exactly easy to nab.

Pau wasn't a superstar, but he wasn't a HOFer when he was acquired either. Think Pau ultimately sat in that Jimmy Butler tier which is comfortably ahead of Holiday.


This is libelous. If anything Battier dragged Pau, not the other way around.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1452 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:26 pm

Grizzlies win 50, 45, 49, <trade Battier, still have Pau>, 22, 22*

*Pau missed half this season.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1453 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:33 pm

If Pau is a first ballot HoFer it's because he won 2 rings with the Lakers and has a stellar international resume. Lots of post hoc ergo prompter hoc stuff going on here.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1454 » by skones » Tue Mar 9, 2021 4:57 pm

emunney wrote:Grizzlies win 50, 45, 49, <trade Battier, still have Pau>, 22, 22*

*Pau missed half this season.


I don't even know why I'm dignifying this BS with a response.

Battier, Posey, Jones, Bobby Jackson, Lorenzen Wright, the rotation of the 2nd ranked defense in the entire league gone. Consummate role players do NOT drag teams anywhere. Periodt.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1455 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:24 pm

Well, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. First Pau dragged the role players to 50 wins, then he couldn't possibly win 23 games without them. Are the role players important or not?

The Lakers were 42-40 the year before they traded for Gasol, but they were 30-16 when they traded for him. You tell me if their improvement didn't also have a lot to do with ditching Smush Parker. Obviously Pau made them better, don't pretend like I'm saying Pau Gasol wasn't an outstanding player.

And by the way, separately, everybody thought that deal was *absurd* at the time, people wanted the league to void it. So even if you agree Pau was a superstar, using it as an example of a typical deal is disingenuous.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1456 » by paulpressey25 » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:31 pm

emunney wrote:If Pau is a first ballot HoFer it's because he won 2 rings with the Lakers and has a stellar international resume. Lots of post hoc ergo prompter hoc stuff going on here.


We all knew Pau was a damn stud on Memphis. You were part of those game threads we'd have during that era, where we'd watch Pau absolutely hand it to Bogut, and we'd lament that Bogut would never hit his level.

And yes, the deal was a massive steal at the time. But that's a point to make in this discussion. There are teams out there ready to be fleeced in deals, whether large or small. We need to be on the right side of those most of the time. I don't know that we were on the Jrue trade.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1457 » by skones » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:41 pm

emunney wrote:Well, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. First Pau dragged the role players to 50 wins, then he couldn't possibly win 23 games without them. Are the role players important or not?

The Lakers were 42-40 the year before they traded for Gasol, but they were 30-16 when they traded for him. You tell me if their improvement didn't also have a lot to do with ditching Smush Parker. Obviously Pau made them better, don't pretend like I'm saying Pau Gasol wasn't an outstanding player.

And by the way, separately, everybody thought that deal was *absurd* at the time, people wanted the league to void it. So even if you agree Pau was a superstar, using it as an example of a typical deal is disingenuous.


Nah, I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth at all. Gasol was the centerpiece of that team, it wasn't a secret, and you know that. You're pretending to be offended by the semantics of it with the word "drag." It's pedantic. The one who's being disingenuous here is you, acting as if A) Roster turnover doesn't play a substantial role here and B) building a straw man and implying that I'm somehow saying role players are important (hint: I'm not, you also know that). A very good player with a fine collection of role players and that player will elevate the play of those around him. Without that very good player, that team is floundering. That's how the NBA works. Gasol was that guy.

Let me be frank, I said, Gasol dragged those Memphis teams. You countered with Battier dragged them. I'm pretty comfortable with which side I'm on here.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1458 » by emunney » Tue Mar 9, 2021 6:17 pm

skones wrote:
emunney wrote:Well, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. First Pau dragged the role players to 50 wins, then he couldn't possibly win 23 games without them. Are the role players important or not?

The Lakers were 42-40 the year before they traded for Gasol, but they were 30-16 when they traded for him. You tell me if their improvement didn't also have a lot to do with ditching Smush Parker. Obviously Pau made them better, don't pretend like I'm saying Pau Gasol wasn't an outstanding player.

And by the way, separately, everybody thought that deal was *absurd* at the time, people wanted the league to void it. So even if you agree Pau was a superstar, using it as an example of a typical deal is disingenuous.


Nah, I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth at all. Gasol was the centerpiece of that team, it wasn't a secret, and you know that. You're pretending to be offended by the semantics of it with the word "drag." It's pedantic. The one who's being disingenuous here is you, acting as if A) Roster turnover doesn't play a substantial role here and B) building a straw man and implying that I'm somehow saying role players are important (hint: I'm not, you also know that). A very good player with a fine collection of role players and that player will elevate the play of those around him. Without that very good player, that team is floundering. That's how the NBA works. Gasol was that guy.

Let me be frank, I said, Gasol dragged those Memphis teams. You countered with Battier dragged them. I'm pretty comfortable with which side I'm on here.


I was half joking about Battier dragging Gasol, thus 'if anything'. I don't believe either of them dragged the other. They were a great pairing. Nobody dragged anybody.

Everybody likes to **** on semantics until they find out that you can't communicate if words don't have meaning. You used the words you used because you thought it helped your argument, and now you're backtracking because you found out it cuts both ways. That team won because it was a good team, not because Pau carried them.

To recap:

KG trade: a lot more asset value than we gave up
Pau: not a superstar, outlier trade
Sheed: not a superstar, damaged goods
The Jrue trade: fine in-a-vacuum value, but bad because it left us with inadequate role players and severely limited means to acquire them
Virtual Boy: very fun, battery eater
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1459 » by yannisk » Tue Mar 9, 2021 6:36 pm

I am not convinced trading for Jrue made easier signing Giannis. Maybe it did, maybe it did not make a difference or maybe it even made it more difficult.

Giannis wanted an improved team to be a championship contender. This team is so far worse than the previous two years and has reduced the options it has to improve in the next few years. I think the majority here considers we gave up too much without becoming good enough, maybe Giannis felt the same way and had one more proof that Bucks management is incompetent and desperate.
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Re: Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected 

Post#1460 » by skones » Tue Mar 9, 2021 7:17 pm

emunney wrote:
I was half joking about Battier dragging Gasol, thus 'if anything'. I don't believe either of them dragged the other. They were a great pairing. Nobody dragged anybody.

Everybody likes to **** on semantics until they find out that you can't communicate if words don't have meaning. You used the words you used because you thought it helped your argument, and now you're backtracking because you found out it cuts both ways. That team won because it was a good team, not because Pau carried them.



Nah, I'm not backtracking. What IS backtracking though, is saying, "I was half joking" while making a statement and then immediately supporting it with yet another post. After all, you can't communicate if words don't have meaning. But k.

Gasol carried a bunch of guys, and make no mistake that roster was comprised of a bunch of guys, to a franchise's first three playoff appearances and overall relevance. The ultimate point though, that Pau Gasol was a "Jrue Holiday level acquisition?" It's wrong.

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